In Depth Pre-Expansion Hunter Guide. (All Specs)

[Gugu 0]

I have a question about aoe rotation - I'm new to hunters.

When it says, for example, multi shot and cobra shot exclusively, does that mean ignore barrage?

Edited October 24, 2014 by Gugu

[Orthios 271]

I have a question about aoe rotation - I'm new to hunters.

When it says, for example, multi shot and cobra shot exclusively, does that mean ignore barrage?

You will still want to use Barrage on CD.  Barrage will do a lot more damage than multi-shot will, and with a decent amount of haste, you can keep up beast cleave with little or no downtime on it (somewhat dependent on how much focus you have when you use barrage).

[Iridar 80]

The two passive ones are better than Focusing Shot by miles. Fuck that ability.

Agreed. I don't get why it *replaces* steady/cobra. Even if focusing shot was castable on the move, it shouldn't remove the steady/cobra. 3 sec cast is so often not an option. 

[Boros 0]

"Affliction" hunter isn't possible until they give us more than 1.5 DoTs...and make those DoTs actually pack a punch

Well affliction itself only has 3 dots and we would technically have 3.5 if we used poison arrows (if they were good of course and BA had 100% uptime)

 

I was under the assumption their goal was making SV into a DoT class with pushing them towards multistrike but I guess they fucked up on the numbers there.

[Atrais 38]

Well affliction itself only has 3 dots and we would technically have 3.5 if we used poison arrows (if they were good of course and BA had 100% uptime)

 

I was under the assumption their goal was making SV into a DoT class with pushing them towards multistrike but I guess they fucked up on the numbers there.

 

So with Exotic Munitions, SV would have one weak DoT that can be spread (SS), one decently strong DoT without 100% uptime and which cant be applied more than once (BA), one so-so AoE DoT on a long CD that is a waste of a GCD single-target (Explosive Trap), and one so-so DoT that can be spread with auto-attacks (EM).  You really can't be considered a DoT class when your DoTs are wimpy, your biggest DoT can't be applied more than once and your skill-set have little interaction with your DoTs.

Affliction has their entire spec built around DoTs.  Haunt increases DoT damage, their main raid CD increases their DoT damage, they have abilities for quickly spreading their main DoTs from target-to-target.  SV isn't so much a DoT spec as it is a broken DPS spec that just happens to have a few DoT abilities.

[Boros 0]

So with Exotic Munitions, SV would have one weak DoT that can be spread (SS), one decently strong DoT without 100% uptime and which cant be applied more than once (BA), one so-so AoE DoT on a long CD that is a waste of a GCD single-target (Explosive Trap), and one so-so DoT that can be spread with auto-attacks (EM).  You really can't be considered a DoT class when your DoTs are wimpy, your biggest DoT can't be applied more than once and your skill-set have little interaction with your DoTs.

Affliction has their entire spec built around DoTs.  Haunt increases DoT damage, their main raid CD increases their DoT damage, they have abilities for quickly spreading their main DoTs from target-to-target.  SV isn't so much a DoT spec as it is a broken DPS spec that just happens to have a few DoT abilities.

 

Yup Blizzard fucked up in their plans pretty badly. Would have been fun to be DoT oriented imo

[Iridar 80]

Yup Blizzard fucked up in their plans pretty badly. Would have been fun to be DoT oriented imo

Just remember guys - however hard it feels right now, warriors have it worse. So if you feel down just go point finger at them and laugh :D

[lipsinch 46]

Just remember guys - however hard it feels right now, warriors have it worse. So if you feel down just go point finger at them and laugh

 

Thing is they still strong, albeit not so fun. Lol

 

I started playing my Hunter late late MoP as Sv, too bad they're nerfed to teh floor.

[Iridar 80]

Thing is they still strong, albeit not so fun. Lol

 

I started playing my Hunter late late MoP as Sv, too bad they're nerfed to teh floor.

I'm not concerned with damage, they can and most probably will tune all specs so they have similar DPS. I'm talking about warriors being mindnumbingly dull and boring to play. Fury is so-so, but arms is completely braindead spec now. Seriously, you should see their priority list. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad, I loved arms warriors in MoP. 

[Atrais 38]

I'm not concerned with damage, they can and most probably will tune all specs so they have similar DPS. I'm talking about warriors being mindnumbingly dull and boring to play. Fury is so-so, but arms is completely braindead spec now. Seriously, you should see their priority list. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad, I loved arms warriors in MoP. 

 

When 6.0 first launched, Arms could do nothing but spam Whirlwind and still out-dps Survival, I know this because me and my guildie tried it.

You are correct that Fury and Arms are pretty boring now, but honestly MM and Survival aren't much more complex.  Talents aside, MM is only 4 moves (SS,CS,AS,KS) same as Arms (MS,WW,Rend,CS).  The most complex part of MM is learning to stand still after years of mobility

Edited October 27, 2014 by Atrais

[Iridar 80]

When 6.0 first launched, Arms could do nothing but spam Whirlwind and still out-dps Survival, I know this because me and my guildie tried it.

You are correct that Fury and Arms are pretty boring now, but honestly MM and Survival aren't much more complex.  Talents aside, MM is only 4 moves (SS,CS,AS,KS) same as Arms (MS,WW,Rend,CS).  The most complex part of MM is learning to stand still after years of mobility

 

If you're gonna count abilities at least count right. 

MM: CS, KS, AiS, SS, Lvl_90_talent + LvL 75 talent as cooldown or passive, for now cooldowns offer superior DPS over passive option. RF as cooldown. That's 5 rotational abilities and 2 cooldowns.

 

Power Shot is non-competitive, other options have sub-20 second cooldown and are used on cooldown almost always, so they are rotational abilities. 

 

Arms: MS, CS, Rend, WW, Execute. Lvl 45 talent has one active and two passive options, for now active option is inferior to passive. Lvl 60 talent is either 30 second rotational ability, or 60 second AoE cooldown. LvL 90 talent is 1 min or 3 min cooldown, + Recklessness. 

 

So that gives warriors 6 rotational abilities + 2 cooldowns. 

 

But marksmen - and hunters in general - are way more complex because we have to control our resource intake, we're GCD capped, while warriors aren't. I agree marksman is very simple now, but we're nowhere near as boring and "me smash" as warriors. 

[Atrais 38]

If you're gonna count abilities at least count right.

 

Seriously? That was rude and uncalled for...

 

Apparently you missed the part where I said "talents aside". 

 

Both Arms and MM have exceedingly simple rotations.  Which of them is "more" simple is obviously a matter for some debate, but I doubt being GCD-capped or not really makes that much difference in complexity.   Focus really isn't hard to manage, at least not any much difficult than Rage.  MM is practically swimming in Focus.

[Iridar 80]

Seriously? That was rude and uncalled for...

 

Apparently you missed the part where I said "talents aside". 

 

Both Arms and MM have exceedingly simple rotations.  Which of them is "more" simple is obviously a matter for some debate, but I doubt being GCD-capped or not really makes that much difference in complexity.   Focus really isn't hard to manage, at least not any much difficult than Rage.  MM is practically swimming in Focus.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, it wasn't my intention. Yeah, I missed "talents aside", though I'm not sure why should we ignore them, considering they change the rotation. 

 

There's nothing "obviously debatable" to me, MM is harder, period. Rage doesn't need to be handled at all, you either spend it or you don't. 

GCD capped or not is a huge deal. Even a few seconds of inaction drop MM's DPS, while warrior just pools rage slightly, and he can spend it later with no downside. 

[Atrais 38]

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, it wasn't my intention. Yeah, I missed "talents aside", though I'm not sure why should we ignore them, considering they change the rotation. 

 

There's nothing "obviously debatable" to me, MM is harder, period. Rage doesn't need to be handled at all, you either spend it or you don't. 

GCD capped or not is a huge deal. Even a few seconds of inaction drop MM's DPS, while warrior just pools rage slightly, and he can spend it later with no downside. 

 

It's not about hurt feelings, it's about participating in an online forum without resorting to being a troll.  I left talents out of it because the talent choices affect the complexity, ideal choices or not.  Regardless, as you yourself proved, the # of rotational abilities is practically the same.

I'm not seeing whats hard about Focus.  You either have enough for Ais/Barrage/CS and you use it, or you don't and you SS.  SUre, theres a little more nuance than that, making sure to use all your abilities on CD, but it's not that much more complex than Rage to me.

MM can also Focus cap without losing a ton of DPS.  It's not ideal, but you're not going to drop that much if it happens.

[Iridar 80]

It's not about hurt feelings, it's about participating in an online forum without resorting to being a troll.  I left talents out of it because the talent choices affect the complexity, ideal choices or not.  Regardless, as you yourself proved, the # of rotational abilities is practically the same.

I'm not seeing whats hard about Focus.  You either have enough for Ais/Barrage/CS and you use it, or you don't and you SS.  SUre, theres a little more nuance than that, making sure to use all your abilities on CD, but it's not that much more complex than Rage to me.

MM can also Focus cap without losing a ton of DPS.  It's not ideal, but you're not going to drop that much if it happens.

Didn't realize pointing flaws in arguments is being a troll. I basically said to you "if you're doing something, do it right". Wow, such a troll I am, resorting to petty personal insults and using ad hominem arguments. 

/sarcasm off

 

That "little nuance" makes all the difference. With warrior you work with what you have. With hunter you can get more now to have enough later. You can't do anything to affect rage income as a warrior. You can also plan ahead and make sure not to spend rage now to have enough later, but it's different.

 

Hunter: spend focus on priority shots. No priority shots now -> make sure to have enough focus later by casting SS. 

Warrior: spend rage on priority abilities. No priority now -> make sure to have enough rage later by WAITING.

 

Cast SS vs waiting is a big difference. You can't mess up waiting, but you can mess up steadies: it takes time which can interfere with priority shots, you need to finish the cast on an alive target which becomes an issue in aoe/target switch situations. 

[Atrais 38]

Didn't realize pointing flaws in arguments is being a troll. I basically said to you "if you're doing something, do it right". Wow, such a troll I am, resorting to petty personal insults and using ad hominem arguments. 

/sarcasm off

 

That "little nuance" makes all the difference. With warrior you work with what you have. With hunter you can get more now to have enough later. You can't do anything to affect rage income as a warrior. You can also plan ahead and make sure not to spend rage now to have enough later, but it's different.

 

Hunter: spend focus on priority shots. No priority shots now -> make sure to have enough focus later by casting SS. 

Warrior: spend rage on priority abilities. No priority now -> make sure to have enough rage later by WAITING.

 

Cast SS vs waiting is a big difference. You can't mess up waiting, but you can mess up steadies: it takes time which can interfere with priority shots, you need to finish the cast on an alive target which becomes an issue in aoe/target switch situations. 

 

Agree or not, you decided to insult me instead of just having a discussion about the compelxity (or lack thereof) between the two classes. 

Casting SS is basically the same as wating, except you have to click a button, you can always cancel SS if you need to without losing a ton of DPS, SS accounts for very little of your damage.  Even played an an entirely noob level, MM is easy.  Like Warriors, getting that last 5%-10% out of them is hard, but the 90-95% is pretty straight-forward.

I feel liek you are really exaggerating the difficulty of playing a MM Hunters.  As I said before, the only hard part is mastering the mastery, i.e. not moving.  Besides that, it's manage CDs and pool resources, same as Warrior, but a little more compelxity, but not nearly as much as you are playing it up to be.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Atrais

[Iridar 80]

Agree or not, you decided to insult me instead of just having a discussion about the compelxity (or lack thereof) between the two classes. 

Casting SS is basically the same as wating, except you have to click a button, you can always cancel SS if you need to without losing a ton of DPS, SS accounts for very little of your damage.  Even played an an entirely noob level, MM is easy.  Like Warriors, getting that last 5%-10% out of them is hard, but the 90-95% is pretty straight-forward.

I feel liek you are really exaggerating the difficulty of playing a MM Hunters.  As I said before, the only hard part is mastering the mastery, i.e. not moving.  Besides that, it's manage CDs and pool resources, same as Warrior, but a little more compelxity, but not nearly as much as you are playing it up to be.

I didn't insult you, you chose to consider that an insult. 

 

Canceling a casted shot is a dps loss, it's a waste of precious time that could have been better spent. That's why GCD capped classes are on a different level. 

I'm not saying MM is super hard mode. A few posts above you see me admitting that MM is simple, but still way more complex than arms. 

 

Arms is like a hunter with steady shots being passively, automatically cast without any interaction with other abilities. And you're telling me that's not way easier than having to cast them yourself? 

 

I'm striving to achieve absolutely optimal rotation with every DPS class that I play. Doing that with arms is much easier. Maybe losing 5% DPS is not a huge deal to you. It is to me. 

[Atrais 38]

I didn't insult you, you chose to consider that an insult. 

 

Canceling a casted shot is a dps loss, it's a waste of precious time that could have been better spent. That's why GCD capped classes are on a different level. 

I'm not saying MM is super hard mode. A few posts above you see me admitting that MM is simple, but still way more complex than arms. 

 

Arms is like a hunter with steady shots being passively, automatically cast without any interaction with other abilities. And you're telling me that's not way easier than having to cast them yourself? 

 

I'm striving to achieve absolutely optimal rotation with every DPS class that I play. Doing that with arms is much easier. Maybe losing 5% DPS is not a huge deal to you. It is to me. 

 

You basically made my point for me now, MM is simple, so in Arms.  I'm not sure what we are even arguing over.  Arms can lsoe DPS too if not played optimally, and again, suggesting that I don't care about maximizing my DPS is somewhat insulting in the way you are choosing to deliver it.  MM is simple, Arms is simple, done.

[Iridar 80]

You basically made my point for me now, MM is simple, so in Arms.  I'm not sure what we are even arguing over.  Arms can lsoe DPS too if not played optimally, and again, suggesting that I don't care about maximizing my DPS is somewhat insulting in the way you are choosing to deliver it.  MM is simple, Arms is simple, done.

We're arguing over the fact you're not willing to say "you're right, MM is harder than arms.". 

[Atrais 38]

We're arguing over the fact you're not willing to say "you're right, MM is harder than arms.". 

 

I disagreed that you made it sound like Arms was so much simpler than MM, when rotationally the ability count is the same and Focus is only slightly more nuanced than Rage.  I originally said the only complex part of MM is the mastery, the rest is the same to me, complexity-wise, and I stand by that.  MM and Arms are both simple, the extent to which either is more simple than the other is minor.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Atrais

[Orthios 271]

Stop this NOW you two.  It does NOT MATTER.  I don't want what happened between Niix, Azor, and myself to repeat itself (the feelings/tension that is).  Guess what: Which spec is harder is a matter of opinion.  To me, MM is very easy since I've played it since I created my hunter, while Arms isn't so easy since I haven't had as much experience with it.  

[Iridar 80]

Stop this NOW you two.  It does NOT MATTER.  I don't want what happened between Niix, Azor, and myself to repeat itself (the feelings/tension that is).  Guess what: Which spec is harder is a matter of opinion.  To me, MM is very easy since I've played it since I created my hunter, while Arms isn't so easy since I haven't had as much experience with it.  

Don't make it sound like there's any argument left to be had. I'm right and we both know it, he just can't bring himself to say it out loud. I don't intend to continue the argument any further. He's the one who started it, so it's up to him to stop it.

[Niix 169]

Stop this NOW you two.  It does NOT MATTER.  I don't want what happened between Niix, Azor, and myself to repeat itself (the feelings/tension that is).  Guess what: Which spec is harder is a matter of opinion.  To me, MM is very easy since I've played it since I created my hunter, while Arms isn't so easy since I haven't had as much experience with it.  

 

Let's all relax. Orthios is right and I'd rather not have to give people warnings and delete posts.

[Niix 169]

Don't make it sound like there's any argument left to be had. I'm right and we both know it, he just can't bring himself to say it out loud. I don't intend to continue the argument any further. He's the one who started it, so it's up to him to stop it.

 

I'm seriously considering locking this thread if this conversation continues. Take it to PMs.

[Atrais 38]

Won't hear anymore for me on the matter, sorry we let this little disagreement cloud this thread, should have taken it elsewhere, apologies all-around