Brewmasters at level 100 - how are they faring?

[Hungh 0]

Hey guys. You've helped me a lot in the past with various stuff, and I've appreciated it.

 

I was on the popular Twitch streamer Slootbag's stream the other day, and I asked how Brewmasters were at level 100. He said "Brewmasters are currently the weakest level 100 tanks." I figure that since he's a tank for one of the best guilds in NA, his opinion is fairly trustworthy.

 

The gist of what I want to ask is this: how bad is it? Are Brewmasters getting oneshot? Are we unable to tank even heroic difficulty raids? Is the state of the level 100 Brewmaster so bad that guilds have no reason to even bother taking one along?

 

 

[Krazyito 521]

I honestly didn't think that of a brewmaster when doing some tanking on beta, but I would trust slootbag over my own opinion on tanks. 

 

To me it thought all the Tanks were pretty balanced, but I think what makes brewmaster weak for him is because of how they changed multistrike for them. Now brew lawyers have THREE stats that they need for survival (mastery physical, crit for Dodge, MS for self heals.) 

[Adagiovibes 0]

Monks are indeed the worst but only for bleeding edge progression. They are totally capable of handling all the content out there. Its just that other tanks have a slightly (DKs and Druids) to considerably (Warriors and Paladins) easier time. 

[Jagar 0]

So... what exactly is the weakness of BrM? Not enough selfheals? Taking too much dmg?

It's cool, that some BIG GUY said, that BrM is weakest, but is there some explanation?

[Krazyito 521]

I'm not entirely sure, but I think it could be the weak self healing.

It's possible that the stats for a brewmaster are spread too thin and they need a little bit of everything because they are all useful / needed.

[Jagar 0]

Well, i don't know too. Maybe. But warriors doesn't have selfheals at all (to use in rotation i mean)

So i really doubt about that.
BrM were spread thin even before 6.0 All stats were/are useful and multistrike isn't a big change. All tanks are spread now, but maybe not all stats for them are equally useful as they are for BrM. Now, when reforging is not avaible and you can adjust your gear only through gems, i even think that BrM takes some advantage, because stats are almost equal for us. At least at start, when you really need everything and doesn't have multiple pieces in each slot to choose.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Jagar

[Brewmonksta 157]

IMO its just that BrM scale with gear more than the other tanks in the survivability and complexity areas.

 

Once you can start to reach the higher levels of haste, crit, mastery and multistrike they will again be more viable than the other tanks.

 

The traditional sword and board tanks have a higher passive damage mitigation so in the bleeding edge progression they are more forgiving than a class that needs stats to be more powerful.

 

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17M.html

*Image wouldnt work

 

Here are the current TMI for T17 Mythic. TMI rating shows the spikyness rating of a tank

TMI Definition:

The Theck-Meloree Index, or TMI, is a tanking metric that was developed to measure damage smoothness and susceptibility to spike damage. The metric is fully explained here, but in short, it produces a number (in thousands) that is roughly proportional to the size of your largest damage spikes (in percent of max health). For example, if your report says it calculated a TMI of 125k, it means you're taking spikes that are up to 125% of your maximum health. The metric accounts for both size and frequency of those spikes, so for example, a TMI of 125k could mean about one spike that's 125% of your health or several spikes that are 120% of your health. Minimizing TMI will generally mean your damage intake is smoother and you are less susceptible to dying from a damage spike.

 

This shows that the tanks are all fairly even at a mythic level on their "spikyness".

 

For DPS the BrM is slightly behind the Warrior and Paladin.

 

So i beleive the "BrM are currently the worst tanks" should be taken in th same context as on a scale of 1 to 100, 99 is better than 98.

[Jagar 0]

This simulation shows only 1.8% HPS through gift of the ox. Too low numbers, it should be higher, so overall hps should be higher. Probably it can't count this specific mechanic. And we are best at damage taken per second... Well, looks fine to me, though dps makes me sad :(
 

Edited October 27, 2014 by Jagar

[Nucleotides 0]

What I don't understand is with the most recent sims it stands.

 

Druids: 89k

2h Monk: 99k

DK: 100k

Pally: 102k

Warrior:103k

 

With these numbers it would suggest that for incoming damage druids>>>monk>dk, pally, warrior. I think a lot of the people out there are doing their numbers based on target dummy (tank dummy) runs. While this is a decent tool it is a very specific type of fight and not indicative of what the different boss fights we will have, similar to how simcraft results are only posted for patchwerk fights. 

 

If you are in any kind of hardcore raiding guild and you are a tank you will get your first tank ready to start raiding and you will be starting on the other tank classes to get them ready as well since what tank is best tends to be fight dependent. 

 

tl;dr: Numbers are conflicting, the difference are likely negligible so play what you want.

[Zvon 0]

So how are we going to weight Haste/Crit/Multistrike/Versatility, or what's the goal for each stat?

 

I am assuming:

1. Haste: get to what we are comfortable with

2. Crit: get Elusive Brew stacking speed up to around 7 stacks for each time drink AND won't drop.

3. Multistrike/Versatility: What about these 2? 

 

Any ideas?

[Zvon 0]

Also, I asked Slootbag by PM him about the disadvantages of monk tank at progression, he told me this:

 

 

 

In a nutshell:
When they nerfed all tank survivability, they unfortunately overdid it for Monks by removing their 20% DR and adding 50% armor scaling. This is fine and dandy and at later gear levels monks will be great but early on when gear is crap they suffer particularly hard because they already had by far the lowest armor of all tanks. So 50% of shit armor is just slightly less shitty armor, meaning they physically got hit harder than most other tanks, therefore requiring more mana/cds etc and leading to more potential deaths.

Now it's totally possible Blizzard may have stealth buffed them prior to live WoD or something, but I certainly haven't heard anything like that for now.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Zvon

[Brewmonksta 157]

 

Also, I asked Slootbag....TL;DR monks scale with gear

This is pretty much what we knew and have mentioned and has happened for monk tanks throughout MoP.

 

If your not pushing world top 50 its not going to matter which tank you play.

 

Slootbag has all the tanks at his disposal and plays all of them at an elite level.

 

If you play a monk you shouldnt be rerolling because slootbag said they're crap(per) than the other tanks at early gear levels.

[Hungh 0]

Thanks for the various responses guys. I've done a lot of independent research on this and have found that there is a noticeable difference in the level 100 tanks, where early on BM is likely going to be pretty squishy. Self heals even latter on seem to be incredibly weak as well which is kind of worrying but with how much fun monk is, I have a feeling that it'll be worth it in the end. I think it'll come down to being able to play my class well enough to compensate for the disadvantages.

It's also worth mentioning that even in the earliest tier monks start climbing ahead of other tanks in DTPS. In MoP it took a lot longer.

[Zvon 0]

Thanks Hungh for making it clear. I was trying to decide between Prot Warrior and BrM Monk for the raid. It's obviously that monk has been more squishy in Patch 6.0 compared it was in Pre-Patch. But I still decided monk afterall just because it was my main, and like you said, it is fun. Also, I think monks still have the obvious advantage in AoE/adds fight.

[Brewmonksta 157]

I cant watch this discussion without putting in some more input.

 

Link to simcraft at T17N

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17N.html

 

This shows that with only normal gear(old flex) on a single target patchwerk we will have:

• The lowest Damage taken per second of all tanks
• yes we only outheal/absorb warriors
• and the TMI(squishyness) rating we are the worst but not by much compaed to the pally and warrior.
• We are 3rd best dps only behind the pally and warrior

 

Monks are not that bad....

[Brewmonksta 157]

Monk

    Brewmaster

•         Stance of the Sturdy Ox now increases armor by 75% (up from 50%), and reduces magic damage taken by 15% (up from 10%).

[Nucleotides 0]

 

Monk

    Brewmaster

•         Stance of the Sturdy Ox now increases armor by 75% (up from 50%), and reduces magic damage taken by 15% (up from 10%).

 

 

I saw that. I looked again at the sims but as far as I can tell this hasn't been taken into account yet. I really want to know how this turns out but since I cannot seem to do anything but run garrison followers missions I am just going to split my time between my pally and monk this weekend while they figure things out.

[Hungh 0]

I asked Slooty on his stream, and he basically said that it changes nothing in the end. Increasing your crappy armor by another 25% is still crappy.

 

I think Brewmasters will excel later on in this tier, but without gear it's going to be a lot of getting oneshot. I'm having a hard enough time tanking on a Paladin right now with healers still not knowing their keybindings so it's not the best time to be a BM I reckon.

[Golfik 0]

I came back to wow after two years. Used to main rogue, but not knowing will we have a tank for our raid group, i picked monk.

i used to tank on DK back in LK times but had no knowledge of monk before.

I like to think i now play my tank well but i am sure i can still improve.

Here are my impressions:

- after hitting level 100 i rushed into dungeons and was to a rude aweakening. I had equppied 596 gear and i was getting hit very very hard.

- while leveling with guild group/healers were strugling to keep me up at times. Any bigger pack and we struggled.

- i am now 619 and doing heroics. I can already see the difference. Might be that i am better with CD usage as well, but overall, i feel much more comfortable.

I did feel sorry for healers when they had to heal me while in crappy gear but it seems like its better and beter the more gear i get.

I will stay with my BR tank and hope it will be good enught to play at mythic level

Golfiksp aka Golfik

[Brewmonksta 157]

 

a lot of getting oneshot.

Only if your terrible.

 

Monks are still viable.

[Jagar 0]

I moved to heroics at 615 and it was overall ok.
There was no situations, when we was wiped because i was taking too much damage. I'm 630 now.

Better gear -> better performance. It was rule in pandas, and it still is.
I remember, when i was 480, and i was squishy, with low hps and dps.
And then, with time, i hit 570, coming with imba avoidance, damage compared to pure dps, and hps at 50% of pure healer.

With that fact, that mechanic wasn't changed greatly, i think, that it would be pretty the same picture in future content.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Jagar