[Balance] WoD 6.0 Guide: When the Stars Align

[Krazyito 521]

isn't Soul of the Forest still better than Incarnation?

 

No.  Its only better on a pure single target fight.  Anytime that you will use starfall, it just falls behind because you're wasting potential damage.

 

Butcher is the closest that you will get to it currently, but the fight is so short, that Inc pulls ahead.  If you're killing the fight between 90 and 170~ seconds then soul of the forest MIGHT be better.  

 

Basically, if you can kill the boss within 30-45s of using your 2nd incarnation, then Inc is better.

 

 

Although, in general, I've seem most Boomkins use Inc/Euphoria for pretty much every fight just out of pure ease.

[Salmora 0]

No.  Its only better on a pure single target fight.  Anytime that you will use starfall, it just falls behind because you're wasting potential damage.

 

Butcher is the closest that you will get to it currently, but the fight is so short, that Inc pulls ahead.  If you're killing the fight between 90 and 170~ seconds then soul of the forest MIGHT be better.  

 

Basically, if you can kill the boss within 30-45s of using your 2nd incarnation, then Inc is better.

 

 

Although, in general, I've seem most Boomkins use Inc/Euphoria for pretty much every fight just out of pure ease.

It's all about playstyle tbh, because the differences are minor (100-200 dps) same as the race percs.

So find out which you prefer and use it. I personally prefer Soul of the Forest.

[Krazyito 521]

If you're seeing such a minor DPS difference between soul of the forest and incarnation especially on a multi target fight, then I don't want to be rude, but you're quite frankly not playing the opener correctly.

 

The damage difference when played correctly is significant enough to where Incarnation beats out SotF even in most single target situations.

 

As for SotF: simply put, the more times you cast starfall in a fight (such as bracken/twins, the more you're losing out on the dps potential of SotF

[Salmora 0]

If you're seeing such a minor DPS difference between soul of the forest and incarnation especially on a multi target fight, then I don't want to be rude, but you're quite frankly not playing the opener correctly.

 

The damage difference when played correctly is significant enough to where Incarnation beats out SotF even in most single target situations.

 

As for SotF: simply put, the more times you cast starfall in a fight (such as bracken/twins, the more you're losing out on the dps potential of SotF

 I'm sorry but you confuse the high opener numbers with the overall performance of the 2 Talents.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Salmora

[Krazyito 521]

The higher opener numbers is what makes up the majority of your damage.  Inc will do more damage overall than SotF will currently.

 

This becomes even more true everytime you use starfall, and seeing as 2+ targets is good for starfall, then I find it very hard to see a time where SotF comes out ahead or close.

[Bonita 8]

The higher opener numbers is what makes up the majority of your damage.  Inc will do more damage overall than SotF will currently.

 

This becomes even more true everytime you use starfall, and seeing as 2+ targets is good for starfall, then I find it very hard to see a time where SotF comes out ahead or close.

 

Can confirm this. if you check warcraftlogs-Rankings you will be confirmed aswell

 

Also, as already said by Krazyito, the only fight where Sotf would come into play, would be Butcher (in theory). Due to the fight only lasts for 3+ minutes (hc) and 4 minutes (mythic) Inc is tooooooo strong to replace it with sotf. For the other Bosses at highmaul sotf is generally useless

Edited February 4, 2015 by Bonita

[dudas92 1]

well i've been using SotF the entire patch. it's stronger for single target and even on fights like bracken or tectus, your priority is to take down the add asap and you deal more dmg on it with SotF, although having more overall dps with starfall. What i'm saying is that, although the meter dmg overall will be worse, your single target damage on your priority target will be much better. the only case i dont see this applying is on twins, where you're damaging the same health pool

[dudas92 1]

i mean that's what i think. but i'll be trying out Inc on the next raids to see if that's a dmg increase

[Krazyito 521]

You can't just "try Inc" and make a decisions based on that.  You have to execute the opener correctly the same exact way with both talents to see a difference in a single target situation.

 

And again, anytime you use starfall, you're outright gimping yourself when using SotF

[Turbochicken 1]

Incarnation really starts to pull ahead of SotF with Shard of Nothing and Archmage's Incandescence going off together while you're using it. The combination of cooldowns during Bloodlust/Heroism just blows SotF out of the water. I really only go with SotF if I'm feeling lazy and know I'll forget to hit Incarnation a second time during the fight. 

[Salmora 0]

The higher opener numbers is what makes up the majority of your damage.  Inc will do more damage overall than SotF will currently.

 

This becomes even more true everytime you use starfall, and seeing as 2+ targets is good for starfall, then I find it very hard to see a time where SotF comes out ahead or close.

Go on and compare Tectus parses on warcraftlogs. The fact that you do 2k more dps than me, while i got 5 targets and u got 8 targets just validates what im saying. Take care :)

[Bonita 8]

everyone is free to use w/e he wants..and if someone disagrees Krazyito or me or someone else that is saying Inc > sotf, than it is up to him...But be sure, that you will never do 100% of the maximum available damage you could do...due to our many years of xp in raiding wow as moonkin we just intent to share our knowledge. and people like me or Krazyito are investing much effort in analysing logfiles, simcrafting or theorycrafting.
Fact is, in Highmaul, Inc > Sotf..There no way to doubt that...Warcraftlogs-Rankings will proof it to you.
Also as already stated before many times by Krazyito or other people, if you are using Sotf, this talent will be wasted the first moment you hit Starfall instead of Starsurge. Due to we Moonkins (should) use Starfall on every Boss at Highmaul (except of Butcher), Sotf will loose its benefit in result of wasting possible higher DPS. And for Butcher: The fight does just not last long enough for Sotf...Average Heroic killtime is about 3 minutes...So you will have 2!! Incarnations....Mythic killtime is about 4 minutes. Same here with Inc...Sotf would maybe be better if butcher would die after 5 minutes.
 

And to give a short feedback to dudas92:

 

well i've been using SotF the entire patch. it's stronger for single target and even on fights like bracken or tectus, your priority is to take down the add asap and you deal more dmg on it with SotF, although having more overall dps with starfall....

 

Your forgetting that at Tectus and Bracken you will defenetely use Starfall. As said above, Sotf will be wasted the first moment you hit Starfall. Yes, priority to take adds down asap is high, your right, esp on Mythic. BUT....your raidmembers will also deal dps on those targets killing those adds quickly due to their small hp (except of the big one at Bracken). So lets recap what kind of adds we deal with at those bosses:
sporeshooters: 2 on hc / 4 on mythic => Dot / Starfall .. The time you cast 1 Starfire at one shooter you have done more dmg to all of them by Dot/Starfall, including the fact that those die very quickly and you probably will only get the chance to cast max 2 Starfires (if it takes longer to kill them, than your raid is doing something wrong and you will be punished in mythic mode)
Bigass add: Yes of course you should switch to it and nuke it down asap, but due to it high hp, you will come into the situation that mindfungas spawns and later the sporeshooters spawn => again Dots/Starfall better (Beside note: in my opinion moonkins should be assigned to set fire to the moss => if you do so, the whole arguing about INC or Sotf for Bracken is a waste of time)

Tectus:
Night-twisted adds: Yep, they should die also asap. But again...they only have little amount of hp...they die quickly...mostly that quickly that even a starfall is wasted...yes..BUT...that only takes effect for p1 when only tectus is alive...the moment p2 stars (when he splits into 2 shards) Starfall is your choice.

PS. im not a english speaking person, so please excuse my broken writing...i hope you get want i am trying to say :)

[Krazyito 521]

Using SotF on Mythic Tectus... Are you trying to make me gimp my raid? Like for the one kill I did of Tectus, my cds lined up so I would use Inc and CA when all 8 came up, that probably didn't improve my overall dps but it definitely increased my dps over SotF on that part of the fight. 

 

You can't just look at the whole fight, you need to know where in the fights your talents are actually benefiting you and your raid.  (especially on Mythic, anything less it really just does NOT matter.) 

 

You can't deny that during mote phase SotF equates to less damage than Inc, so your comparison is moot. 

[Athleticsol 0]

Hi Krazyito!

 

Back on Page 4 you said:

You want to make sure your cast finishes in the correct eclipse (i.e. when you finish casting wrath you should be in solar, etc) So ideally, you're going to start casting wrath a little bit before you cross the middle threshold.

 

 

I have seen this "SP per Second of your spells when cast starts at the specific point in eclipse" spreadsheet by Lappe that can supposedly work out the eclipse energies where one spell is more powerful than the other.

 

I have not seen any real instructions for how to use this spreadsheet or public discussion of this anywhere really, other than the comments by Golfball11 here. The cells that are blue are where you input your variables. Golfball11 says plug in your unbuffed haste and mastery into B4 and B6, then change F36 and B37 to find spots where F43 and F45 are equal.

 

And Golfball11 says these spots are when you should change the spells you cast. So when F43>F45, cast Empowered Starfire, when F45>F43, cast Empowered Wrath.

 

And the same thing for unempowered casts. When G43>G45 cast Starfire, when G45>G43 cast Wrath.

 

Seems like a simple idea right? Well I'm damn confused. Because the spreadsheet seems to imply like Empowered Wrath is stronger than Empowered Starfire for most of lunar eclipse. I don't know. I think I'm making a mistake somewhere but I am REALLY confused and can't see it. Thoughts?

 

Edit: Right I think I understand now. I don't know what I was doing wrong yesterday but everything seems logical now. Also btw Lappe explains it in some comments here.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Athleticsol

[Teufel 331]

A lil' question is on my mind, the 4pc bonus actually makes me wonder if it is a good thing to get my hands on Sandman's (3th of 4th grade) or Copeland (oh well, I did that anyway :>), to try lining it up with CA... :o Copeland, at least.

[Salmora 0]

Using SotF on Mythic Tectus... Are you trying to make me gimp my raid? Like for the one kill I did of Tectus, my cds lined up so I would use Inc and CA when all 8 came up, that probably didn't improve my overall dps but it definitely increased my dps over SotF on that part of the fight. 

 

You can't just look at the whole fight, you need to know where in the fights your talents are actually benefiting you and your raid.  (especially on Mythic, anything less it really just does NOT matter.) 

 

You can't deny that during mote phase SotF equates to less damage than Inc, so your comparison is moot. 

Apparently the comparison was on Heroic. My comparison was validated on my previous comment.

[Krazyito 521]

(especially on Mythic, anything less it really just does NOT matter.)

[Salmora 0]

(especially on Mythic, anything less it really just does NOT matter.)

 

EVERYTHING matters when you progress gear-wise and I have only been in Kargath Mythic so far. Just saying :)

[Krazyito 521]

All I'm trying to say is, if you're not doing mythic, just play what you feel like. It won't make a significant difference. What will still matter most is how you execute your rotation in the raid. 

[Salmora 0]

All I'm trying to say is, if you're not doing mythic, just play what you feel like. It won't make a significant difference. What will still matter most is how you execute your rotation in the raid. 

On that, we agree :)

[Mayve 0]

I don't get how there's even a question about Incarnation vs SotF on Tectus, regardless of the difficulty. Anyone saying SotF is better is playing the class wrong, sorry. 

[Teufel 331]

So... correct me if I'm missing something: is there anything more to Sunfall besides splitting your casting into "SingleTarget Eclipse" and "AoE Eclipse" and being a handy tool if you constantly finding yourself in Solar when you're supposed to AoE (Hi there Kromog)?

[Krazyito 521]

Nope.  It simply just changes which eclipse your starfall/sunfall benefit from.

[Bradykin 16]

Nope.  It simply just changes which eclipse your starfall/sunfall benefit from.

 

Don't forget the all importance swapping of your hurricane damage too!

[NeohEU 0]

Hmm since this guide it states the wrong stats for the different trinkets (Int wise) im currently wondering which is best?

Blackiron Micro Crucible (Normal= 320 int, not the 220 it states in the guide)

 

Vs

 

Quiescent Runestone (Mythic= 301 int, not 265) 

 

I feel like the multi strike proc is so much better due to the fact that will almost always proc during opener with Inca/pre-pots etc. but is that just me? (Also with the int difference)

Edited February 23, 2015 by NeohEU