Azortharion's 6.2.2 MM Hunter Guide

[Atrais 38]

That sounds like a really good way to run loot and it would help a LOT with getting rid of the guys who perform poorly and are like "ooh, oohh loooooot what dropped for me?!" and, like you said, people who only cared about their own dps rather than the guild actually getting somewhere.

The way my guild did it in Siege when we were progressing was just through a loot-master type thing. MS/OS roll, but occasionally the RL gave gear to others who it would benefit more. Example of this is when I was bringing my hunter into normals and we had another hunter along as well who occasionally helped out (I was healing on my priest mainly but I wanted to gear up my hunter on the side so I was allowed to bring him along.. and also bc me playing disc meant the other two healers got no healing in... bc OP shields were OP) and on Sha the trinket dropped, both of us hunters rolled, I rolled higher, but bc my hunter probably wouldn't be bought along when we did heroic the trinket was given to the other hunter. Needless to say... a month or so later, oh crap heroic Malk's DPS, what's that you guys need my hunter? So... after that I was a bit bitter, but I understood at the time where he was coming from and  I was okay to give up the trinket because the other hunter *WOULD* come along more than my hunter would. It was just a bummer bc as soon as I won the roll I closed my bonus-roll bc I didn't need anything else and didn't realise that the RL would do that, but ahh well.

I'm just sad, that RL stopped playing and bc we're a small guild of relatively highly-skilled players on a small server with an alliance dominance and 90% of the horde players being less-skilled we're unable to get a group together for WoD raiding . 

(luckily for me our shaman also was a RL for another guild's raid team - they raided different times to us - who have a handful of the better players so I might be able to get into raids with them at some point, so I won't be missing out on mythic progression)

 

When we switched from a pure roll-based system, it took weeks for everybody to adjust and there was A LOT of drama initially.  People who thought they needed it more, people who thought we were picking on them, min-max heroes who thought the fact that they did the most DPS entitled them to the most loot, etc.  It took some getting used to, and we lost a few raiders that I wasn't particularly sad to see go, but once we were there, it resulted in much less drama overall and focused the team on the guild's progression, and by extension, their own.

One thing we might do differently in WoD is some kind of "selfless bonus" where raiders can "give up" a piece of loot that they would normally be entitled to in order to get higher preference on something else.  We're hoping it'll go even further in encouraging people to help each other out and not beg for a piece of gear that is a minor upgrade when it could be a major upgrade for somebody else.  It also helps people feel like they can bide their time and wait for that one special drop and then, when it does drop, they get preference for giving up their other drops.  Not sure if we'll do it or not, but it's something we are considering.  They could definitely be problems if everybody wants to skip a certain piece to get preference next drop, so it may end up falling through.

[Kulia 39]

When we switched from a pure roll-based system, it took weeks for everybody to adjust and there was A LOT of drama initially.  People who thought they needed it more, people who thought we were picking on them, min-max heroes who thought the fact that they did the most DPS entitled them to the most loot, etc.  It took some getting used to, and we lost a few raiders that I wasn't particularly sad to see go, but once we were there, it resulted in much less drama overall and focused the team on the guild's progression, and by extension, their own.

One thing we might do differently in WoD is some kind of "selfless bonus" where raiders can "give up" a piece of loot that they would normally be entitled to in order to get higher preference on something else.  We're hoping it'll go even further in encouraging people to help each other out and not beg for a piece of gear that is a minor upgrade when it could be a major upgrade for somebody else.  It also helps people feel like they can bide their time and wait for that one special drop and then, when it does drop, they get preference for giving up their other drops.  Not sure if we'll do it or not, but it's something we are considering.  They could definitely be problems if everybody wants to skip a certain piece to get preference next drop, so it may end up falling through.

I imagine there would be a lot of drama, but IMHO it would've been for the better and now seems to work REALLY well for you.

Hmm, that sounds like a good idea on paper, buuut I can see people giving up all their other drops for preference on a big piece, IE a weapon. And because you're likely to have multiple of one class, say you had 2 or 3 hunters and they all wanted a weapon really bad and gave up other loot they would've won for preference on the first hunter weapon to drop and when that weapon does drop I can see it causing a LOT of drama between those people. But I don't know it may work and you won't know unless you try it. But it does have risks. 

Editing in an afterthought: maybe a way to combat people all giving up a piece of loot for the preference thing is maybe give the loot out the normal way, but have two potential takers for it, and give only the first person who gets in the chance to give it up. That way you can't have EVERYONE giving up the piece of loot, but still gives them the chance to be selfless. And maybe you can only do that once or twice every two weeks, that way it wouldn't get out of hand and they end up having a huge bonus for a certain piece of loot that multiple people could benefit from that gives them practically 100% chance to get it, but I don't really know how you'd handle that anyway, just throwing ideas around to give you ideas to make that work because it sounds like a great idea.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Kulia

[Iridar 80]

Hmm, that sounds like a good idea on paper, buuut I can see people giving up all their other drops for preference on a big piece, IE a weapon. And because you're likely to have multiple of one class, say you had 2 or 3 hunters and they all wanted a weapon really bad and gave up other loot they would've won for preference on the first hunter weapon to drop and when that weapon does drop I can see it causing a LOT of drama between those people. But I don't know it may work and you won't know unless you try it. But it does have risks. 

Editing in an afterthought: maybe a way to combat people all giving up a piece of loot for the preference thing is maybe give the loot out the normal way, but have two potential takers for it, and give only the first person who gets in the chance to give it up. That way you can't have EVERYONE giving up the piece of loot, but still gives them the chance to be selfless. And maybe you can only do that once or twice every two weeks, that way it wouldn't get out of hand and they end up having a huge bonus for a certain piece of loot that multiple people could benefit from that gives them practically 100% chance to get it, but I don't really know how you'd handle that anyway, just throwing ideas around to give you ideas to make that work because it sounds like a great idea.

There's no reason to try to invent a bicycle here, a system like this already exists and it's pretty ancient. 

 

It's called DKP, which stands for Dragon Killer Points. Basically, whenever a player does something good (show up to a raid on time and prepared, kill a boss, etc.) raid leader gives that player DKP. If a player screws up, raid leader can fine the player with DKP. 

 

When a loot item drops, players use their DKP to "buy" it, like on auction. Whoever decides to spend the most DKP, gets the item. So when an item drops and you don't want it, you can just let the other players buy it with their DKP, and save yours for later. 

 

There's an advanced version of this system, called EPGP. The issue with DKP is that it's biased towards players who spend the most time in the raid, and if a new member joins the raid, it can be a long time before he earns enough DKP to get any loot.

 

EPGP solves that issue. When player does something good, he gets EP. When he does something bad or "purchases" a loot item, he gets GP. Whoever has the biggest difference between EP and GP will get the item. This way it will be easier for a new player to catch up, as he doesn't have any GP, so when he earns at least some EP, he can participate in purchases. Older players will have much higher EP, but they will have much higher GP as well, and the difference between EP and GP is what matters.

[Atrais 38]

There's no reason to try to invent a bicycle here, a system like this already exists and it's pretty ancient. 

 

It's called DKP, which stands for Dragon Killer Points. Basically, whenever a player does something good (show up to a raid on time and prepared, kill a boss, etc.) raid leader gives that player DKP. If a player screws up, raid leader can fine the player with DKP. 

 

When a loot item drops, players use their DKP to "buy" it, like on auction. Whoever decides to spend the most DKP, gets the item. So when an item drops and you don't want it, you can just let the other players buy it with their DKP, and save yours for later. 

 

There's an advanced version of this system, called EPGP. The issue with DKP is that it's biased towards players who spend the most time in the raid, and if a new member joins the raid, it can be a long time before he earns enough DKP to get any loot.

 

EPGP solves that issue. When player does something good, he gets EP. When he does something bad or "purchases" a loot item, he gets GP. Whoever has the biggest difference between EP and GP will get the item. This way it will be easier for a new player to catch up, as he doesn't have any GP, so when he earns at least some EP, he can participate in purchases. Older players will have much higher EP, but they will have much higher GP as well, and the difference between EP and GP is what matters.

 

We're basically doing EPGP, but our own version of it.  I don't like currency systems, people get too wrapped up in trying to earn currency and stop focusing on the fights.  We tried doing something similar to DKP and had people whispering the Guild Officers after every fight going "Did you see that awesome DPS I did? I should get points for that!" or "Hey I b-rezed the tank so fast! Can I get some coins?".  Instead, we have CONVERSATIONS in the guild about gear drops.  We highlight good parts of the fight, we highlight bad parts, we discuss ilvl differences and stat weights, we tell people who is getting gear, why they are getting it, and people are allowed to voice their opinions on the matter.  Being a relatively close-knit group now, its typically not a problem, everybody knows the deal.  The whole "selfless bonus" was meant to be a way to give an incentive for veterans to help out the new players, which we have many of having gone from 10-man to 20-man.

[Atrais 38]

Editing in an afterthought: maybe a way to combat people all giving up a piece of loot for the preference thing is maybe give the loot out the normal way, but have two potential takers for it, and give only the first person who gets in the chance to give it up. That way you can't have EVERYONE giving up the piece of loot, but still gives them the chance to be selfless. And maybe you can only do that once or twice every two weeks, that way it wouldn't get out of hand and they end up having a huge bonus for a certain piece of loot that multiple people could benefit from that gives them practically 100% chance to get it, but I don't really know how you'd handle that anyway, just throwing ideas around to give you ideas to make that work because it sounds like a great idea.

 

Not a bad idea, but to be honest, the whole "selfless bonus" thing will probably be put aside for the first month at least, since everybody in the guild is ~635 with the 680 ring right now, so everybody will "need" almost everything and we don't want to cause problems with a new loot system on the first day.  THe old way worked well for us, we;re just always looking for ways to do it better.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Atrais

[Casablancas 0]

Hey guys, why do u say that this alchemy trinket is ``bis`` for mm hunters?

[Atrais 38]

Hey guys, why do u say that this alchemy trinket is ``bis`` for mm hunters?

 

Becuase the proc is, last I checked, 771 agility for 15 sec with an ICD of 55 sec.  Thats equivalent to having about 210 Agi, way more than any other pre-Highmaul trinket

[Niix 169]

 

Changed the image to show Skull of War stacking up with everything else. Forgot to add it when I previously did this. What I said still stands, Double Sided / Alch is still Bis, but if you can somehow get a 650 Skull of War, it overtakes the Alch trinket.

[z3kuda 0]

BM question: Why is multistrike and crit the highest sat priority instead of mastery? Don't we benefit from mastery more because of that passive 5% boost to it?

[Niix 169]

BM question: Why is multistrike and crit the highest sat priority instead of mastery? Don't we benefit from mastery more because of that passive 5% boost to it?

 

Mastery just doesn't do enough with how low the values are. Combine with the fact that you either get all of it, or none of it, because when our Sniper Training is down, theoretically our Mastery is non existent. So for average players the value of Mastery drops even further when your Sniper Training uptime isn't high.

 

However, it's not really that mastery is bad, it's just that there are better stats we can get.

[f0nZi3 7]

There's no reason to try to invent a bicycle here, a system like this already exists and it's pretty ancient. 

 

It's called DKP, which stands for Dragon Killer Points. Basically, whenever a player does something good (show up to a raid on time and prepared, kill a boss, etc.) raid leader gives that player DKP. If a player screws up, raid leader can fine the player with DKP. 

 

When a loot item drops, players use their DKP to "buy" it, like on auction. Whoever decides to spend the most DKP, gets the item. So when an item drops and you don't want it, you can just let the other players buy it with their DKP, and save yours for later. 

 

There's an advanced version of this system, called EPGP. The issue with DKP is that it's biased towards players who spend the most time in the raid, and if a new member joins the raid, it can be a long time before he earns enough DKP to get any loot.

 

EPGP solves that issue. When player does something good, he gets EP. When he does something bad or "purchases" a loot item, he gets GP. Whoever has the biggest difference between EP and GP will get the item. This way it will be easier for a new player to catch up, as he doesn't have any GP, so when he earns at least some EP, he can participate in purchases. Older players will have much higher EP, but they will have much higher GP as well, and the difference between EP and GP is what matters.

 

EPGP is what our guild uses and it's a very effective loot method IMO. There have been times that my ratio would have given me the gear, but I have passed it to others and others have passed to me - knowing in each situation where a person passed on an item that it was going to someone reliable, established with the guild and that the item would benefit that person more.

 

So, yes... we could do strict EPGP and only award loot based on the individual ratios for each person, but I view those times where someone passes or I pass as making for a more cohesive guild (one that looks out for each other and not just themselves). It's really one of those things that takes time to get to that point though and new people brought into the guild are still under an evaluation period so they accept going into our guild knowing that they may not see loot for a couple weeks (though that RARELY ever happens - especially if the player is good and not a douche bag). ;)

[Atrais 38]

EPGP is what our guild uses and it's a very effective loot method IMO. There have been times that my ratio would have given me the gear, but I have passed it to others and others have passed to me - knowing in each situation where a person passed on an item that it was going to someone reliable, established with the guild and that the item would benefit that person more.

 

So, yes... we could do strict EPGP and only award loot based on the individual ratios for each person, but I view those times where someone passes or I pass as making for a more cohesive guild (one that looks out for each other and not just themselves). It's really one of those things that takes time to get to that point though and new people brought into the guild are still under an evaluation period so they accept going into our guild knowing that they may not see loot for a couple weeks (though that RARELY ever happens - especially if the player is good and not a douche bag).

 

Yep, same boat with our guild, our system is like a very loose EPGP where we dont use strict currency, we used DKP at first and had too many people trying to game the currency to their advantage.  of course, many of those people are now gone, so we might have a "real" currency system a try again...

[Niix 169]

The only problem that I see with DKP, is that a lot of people horde it, lose out on huge upgrades for themselves so they can save for something they feel is more important. Ultimately hurting themselves, and the guild.

[Atrais 38]

The only problem that I see with DKP, is that a lot of people horde it, lose out on huge upgrades for themselves so they can save for something they feel is more important. Ultimately hurting themselves, and the guild.

 

Yep, EXACTLY the problem we had, we had drops where nobody would accept the loot bc they were saving it for a weapon or trinket (especially AoC, oh my god, the drama...)

Edited December 1, 2014 by Atrais

[z3kuda 0]

I'm talking about a Beast Mastery though. Not MM

[Iridar 80]

I'm talking about a Beast Mastery though. Not MM

These are the stat weights I got in simulationcraft using the latest example profile; it seems Mastery is relatively weak for BM as well.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Iridar

[Niix 169]

These are the stat weights I got in simulationcraft using the latest example profile; it seems Mastery is relatively weak for BM as well.

 

The "Stat Weights" option on SimC is not even close to correct. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Atrais 38]

The "Stat Weights" option on SimC is not even close to correct. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

I thought 1 Agi being worth 3 Crit seemed a little off...

[Niix 169]

I thought 1 Agi being worth 3 Crit seemed a little off...

1 Agi is worth a little less than 2 crit. I haven't bothered to do weights for BM, but the stat priority is correct.

[Atrais 38]

1 Agi is worth a little less than 2 crit. I haven't bothered to do weights for BM, but the stat priority is correct.

 

Yes, thats what my basic napkin math comes out to around too

[Orthios 271]

Mastery just doesn't do enough with how low the values are. Combine with the fact that you either get all of it, or none of it, because when our Sniper Training is down, theoretically our Mastery is non existent. So for average players the value of Mastery drops even further when your Sniper Training uptime isn't high.

 

However, it's not really that mastery is bad, it's just that there are better stats we can get.

Wrong spec Niix, (s)he's talking about for BM, not MM.

 

BM question: Why is multistrike and crit the highest sat priority instead of mastery? Don't we benefit from mastery more because of that passive 5% boost to it?

Niix is correct, though, that with ratings as low as they are right now, mastery isn't as powerful as Crit and Multistrike for increasing dps.

[Niix 169]

Wrong spec Niix, (s)he's talking about for BM, not MM.

 

Niix is correct, though, that with ratings as low as they are right now, mastery isn't as powerful as Crit and Multistrike for increasing dps.

 

Ah okay my bad.

[Iridar 80]

The "Stat Weights" option on SimC is not even close to correct. Take it with a grain of salt.

Didn't know that, any reason behind this?

 

Regardless, stat weights are only meaningful when you compare two competing pieces of gear, and in that case everyone should just sim his own gear two times, with one item, and with the other, and then compare.

 

I was farming that train dungeon for a week before that agi/vers trinket finally dropped, then I simmed myself with it and was disappointed to discover that it's worse than PvP trinket I was using. Wish I simmed beforehand, and not wasted time.

[Orthios 271]

So, I'm kinda curious as to what spec y'all will be running in raids this upcoming week, as in which spec for which boss.  Myself, I will likely be playing MM for all but Tectus, where I will play SV for the AoE at the end (getting all 4/8 motes down faster), but will depend on how well my guild does in quickly learning mechanics and what is expected of me (which I will learn Wed. since my guild takes tuesday off).  I don't see any fights where SV would be better than MM but Tectus, but will have to see, since MM cleave is incredibly strong and none really have consistent AoE where Sv would excel.

[Atrais 38]

So, I'm kinda curious as to what spec y'all will be running in raids this upcoming week, as in which spec for which boss.  Myself, I will likely be playing MM for all but Tectus, where I will play SV for the AoE at the end (getting all 4/8 motes down faster), but will depend on how well my guild does in quickly learning mechanics and what is expected of me (which I will learn Wed. since my guild takes tuesday off).  I don't see any fights where SV would be better than MM but Tectus, but will have to see, since MM cleave is incredibly strong and none really have consistent AoE where Sv would excel.

 

MM on all for me, I've adjusted to its play-style now and quite enjoy it.  I tried rolling SV in some dungeons last week, and while the extra AoE was nice, it really only seemed to make a difference on trash and I felt significantly weaker on ST or fights with 1-2 adds at a time (i.e. almost all of them).  I really hate not having an execute mechanic as SV, it makes quickly finishing off adds feel much slower.

How many adds are up at one time during Tectus? Are they grouped up or spread out?  Are adds up for more than 50% of the fight or are they bursted down quickly?  I feel like I wouldn't want to roll SV and give up significant portions of my ST DPS unless the adds are up for a significant portion of the fight, since MM can always thrown down an Exp Trap and target 1 add at a time and do only slightly worse than SV, and having Kill Shot is a massive plus for add management, IMO.