Azortharion's 6.2.2 MM Hunter Guide

[Iridar 80]

A few rotation questions (Surv)...

 

1) How set in stone is the rotation priority going off this guide? Right now, AMOC and Black Arrow are given priority over Explosive Shot, while in the class guide BA>Explo>AMOC. I assume the former rotation was created because of the damage per execute time being higher for AMOC and BA but does this take into account potentially wasted LnL procs? Which priority should I follow?

 

2) How important is serpent sting uptime? It is not discussed too extensively in either this guide or the class guide so is it safe to just let it drop off if all the previous abilities in the rotation have constantly been coming off cooldown/lots of LnL for 15 seconds, especially with cobra shot (as opposed to focusing shot)? Or does arcane shot move up in the rotation when serpent sting is about to expire?

 

3) Similarly, how much priority do barrage/explosive trap/multi shot gain in a 2+ target situation? On fights like twins, specced into cobra shot, I scarcely have the time or focus to cast barrage/multi shot/explosive trap. Does explosive shot lose priority in this case, and will explosive trap/multi shot/barrage ever pass explosive in priority (including LnL)?

1) It doesn't really matter when you use Crows / Stampede, as long as you have the same number of casts during the fight.

 

For example, if the fight lasts 5 min 45 secs, you can delay casting first crows for as long as 20 seconds without any DPS loss, because in the end you can do 6 AmoC casts per this time. 

 

So, generally, abilities with short cooldowns have higher priority, because delaying them increases the chances you will lose an additional use of this ability during the fight. 

 

I have simmed myself and there was no difference in prioritizing AmoC over Exp. Shot / BA, so use whichever makes more sense at the time. 

 

Running sims to find out 2) and 3), I've been itching to know this myself. Will post results here.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Iridar

[Iridar 80]

So, generally, abilities with short cooldowns have higher priority, because delaying them increases the chances you will lose an additional use of this ability during the fight. 

In case of Black Arrow and Explosive Shot, there is a bit more freedom which to cast first, because more BA casts translate into more ES casts, and more ES casts translate into more, well, ES casts. So they have same priority, use whichever makes more sense at  the time. 

----

Unrelated note: at least for my gear, against single target, GT is barely a DPS gain (+30 DPS), and Barrage is a DPS loss. So I would suggest picking up Barrage and using it when AoE damage is required.

---

Now, to talk about 2 targets.

 

Barrage seems to be a very minor DPS gain in 2 target situation (+200 for my 655 gun), so use only when you have lots of focus to burn - which is likely to be almost never, since you will be spending most of your focus on multi dotting. 

 

2 target shot priority SV:

Against 2 targets, swap target every time you cast Arcane Shot.

 

1. Explosive Trap

2. Arcane Shot if you have TotH proc and Serpent Sting has < 3 seconds remaining on one of the targets

3. Black Arrow / Explosive Shot

4. Stampede / AmoC (doesn't really matter when to use them, as long as delay is not too big)

5. Arcane Shot if you have TotH proc

6. Barrage (think of this as trying to proc TotH with Barrage if you have spare focus)

7. Dump focus with Arcane Shot (this isn't likely to happen)

8. Cobra Shot

 

Note #1: This priority gave me best results in SimCraft, I welcome everyone to try and improve it. I remind you that this is for my gear - 655 gun / 663 avg ilvl. If your gun is much better than the rest of your gear, you're likely to have higher priority for Barrage. If you want to know what is best for you, you have to sim your own gear. 

 

Note #2: Obviously, you can't always conveniently swap targets after each Arcane Shot cast. So if we were to adapt this priority for the cold truths of real world:

 

1. Drop Exp Trap if it's gonna hit both targets

2. If you have TotH proc, send an Arcane Shot to the second target, if it's within your reach, and then continue DPSing your current target

3. Hold your normal single target rotation

4. Try proccing TotH with Barrage

Edited January 1, 2015 by Iridar

[Ghuerilla 2]

Thank you so much, very helpful info!

[Minigun 1]

I had a question with my haste being like 12 percent and crit being 30 percent and my mastery being like 19 percent with multi at like 20 percent keep in mind these are all buffed what should I go for spec wise and here is a link to my character I'm just confused about if barrage is best for single target and if steady is better then thrill and if focusing is better then EM and LW

 

First off, what spec are you?

 

These are the general stat weights.   They will certainly vary with gear, but the order should remain the same.  I am not sure where your numbers come from.

 

BM

MainHandDps 1.20

Agility 1.00

AttackPower 0.90

Multistrike 0.44

Versatility 0.39

CriticalStrike 0.38

Haste 0.37

Mastery 0.37

 

MM:

MainHandDps 2.40

Agility 1.00

AttackPower 0.90

Multistrike 0.53

CriticalStrike < 43% 0.51

Versatility 0.46

Haste 0.41

Mastery 0.39

CriticalStrike 43% + 0.38

 

SV:

Agility 1.00

AttackPower 0.91

MainHandDps 0.7

Multistrike 0.61

Versatility 0.37

CriticalStrike 0.36

Mastery 0.29

Haste 0.20

 

If you are talking about what gear to go for, then wowhead has a great system in place. Just change the stat weight #s accordingly to the spec you use.

 

http://www.wowhead.com/items=4.3?filter=qu=4;sl=5;minle=640;maxle=675;ub=3;gm=3;wt=21:200:215:96:170:103;wtv=100:61:37:36:29:20

 

Specifics regarding whether to use barrage can be found on the front page of the guide.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Minigun

[Atrais 38]

These are the general stat weights.   They will certainly vary with gear, but the order should remain the same.  I am not sure where your numbers come from.

 

He wasn't saying what his stat weights were, he was saying what his actual values were.  Also, please don't rewrite the same information that already exists on the front page of the guide, just refer the person to the numbers Niix has already come up with.  No sense in re-inventing the wheel.

[Niix 169]

He wasn't saying what his stat weights were, he was saying what his actual values were.  Also, please don't rewrite the same information that already exists on the front page of the guide, just refer the person to the numbers Niix has already come up with.  No sense in re-inventing the wheel.

 the weights i put in there are not gonna give you very good results. everybody should come up with numbers themselves.

[Minigun 1]

He wasn't saying what his stat weights were, he was saying what his actual values were.  Also, please don't rewrite the same information that already exists on the front page of the guide, just refer the person to the numbers Niix has already come up with.  No sense in re-inventing the wheel.

Ohh that makes more sense, but that info isn't terribly helpful, so I didn't think about it.

[Niix 169]

Ohh that makes more sense, but that info isn't terribly helpful, so I didn't think about it.

 

Yeah i mention above each section that they are general weights and i provided a little list of how to get the weights for your character.

[Minigun 1]

Yeah i mention above each section that they are general weights and i provided a little list of how to get the weights for your character.

 

Question/Hypothesis.

Focusing Shot Surv:

Could arcane shot + Buff(Scale of Doom and/or Ogle's scope) > Explosive Trap for single target?

 

AS triggers:

AS + Serpent sting tick.

AS can multistrike.

The initial SST can multistrike.

The AS multistrikes can then further multistrike serpent sting ticks.

 

 

EDIT:

I would sim it, but I am not confident enough in my ability to properly change the code.  However, my gut instinct tells me that AS + Buff >> Explosive Trap.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Minigun

[Iridar 80]

Question/Hypothesis.

Focusing Shot Surv:

Could arcane shot + Buff(Scale of Doom and/or Ogle's scope) > Explosive Trap for single target?

 

AS triggers:

AS + Serpent sting tick.

AS can multistrike.

The initial SST can multistrike.

The AS multistrikes can then further multistrike serpent sting ticks.

 

 

EDIT:

I would sim it, but I am not confident enough in my ability on how to change the code properly.

That's interesting, I'll sim it and post results here.

[Minigun 1]

That's interesting, I'll sim it and post results here.

 

Thanks. 

 

What made me think of it was the effective dps gain of explosive trap. 

 

According to my sims,

Removing explosive trap completely nets a 50 dps loss with TotH.

Removing explosive trap completely nets a 100 dps loss with Focusing Shot.

 

Correct me if I am wrong on this, but I believe the sim doesn't take into account human error when dealing with explosive trap.  Which, in my experience is wishful thinking, and would lower the potential gains significantly. 

 

This is why I only use explosive trap in specific situations in single target encounters.

 

 

This is from another site,

If you dont place Explosive Trap instant (or really fast 0,1< sec) its a dps lose anyway.

I am not sure how to add delays into simcraft to test this, so I am not sure if this is accurate, but it sounds legit.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Minigun

[Iridar 80]

Thanks. 

 

What made me think of it was the effective dps gain of explosive trap. 

 

According to my sims,

Removing explosive trap completely nets a 50 dps loss with TotH.

Removing explosive trap completely nets a 100 dps loss with Focusing Shot.

 

Correct me if I am wrong on this, but I believe the sim doesn't take into account human error when dealing with explosive trap.;  Which, in my experience is wishful thinking, and would lower the potential gains significantly.  Which is why I have only used explosive trap in specific situations in single target. 

 

 

This is from another site,

I am not sure if this is accurate, but it sounds legit.  

So here are the results.

 

 

I have removed Barrage from the priority because not using it was such a small DPS loss it was not even worth bothering. 

The "smart" refers to prioritizing Arcane Shot over Explosive Trap if you have Scales of Doom proc (Balanced Fate). 

As you can see, it is too such a small DPS gain that it's not worth bothering. 

 

-----

Yeah, Exp. Trap seems to be not worth it as well in single target; I suggest using it only to plug a hole in your rotation, e.g., when you're 4-6 focus short to cast a high priority ability, so you can throw Exp. Trap and wait for focus to regen passively instead.

 

Or when you have exactly one spare GCD, and plugging it with Cobra / Focusing would delay a high priority ability. 

 

EDIT: I have simmed this as well. Results. <_<

It seems that delaying ES / BA / AMoC to finish casting a Focusing Shot is not such a big deal.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Iridar

[Minigun 1]

So here are the results.

 

 

I have removed Barrage from the priority because not using it was such a small DPS loss it was not even worth bothering. 

The "smart" refers to prioritizing Arcane Shot over Explosive Trap if you have Scales of Doom proc (Balanced Fate). 

As you can see, it is too such a small DPS gain that it's not worth bothering. 

 

-----

Yeah, Exp. Trap seems to be not worth it as well in single target; I suggest using it only to plug a hole in your rotation, e.g., when you're 4-6 focus short to cast a high priority ability, so you can throw Exp. Trap and wait for focus to regen passively instead.

 

Or when you have exactly one spare GCD, and plugging it with Cobra / Focusing would delay a high priority ability. 

 

I sort of expected a little bit bigger difference than that, but it still goes to reinforce my belief that explosive shot just isn't worth using single target, with the exceptions of filling in holes like you said. 

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 

EDIT: I have simmed this as well. Results. 

It seems that delaying ES / BA / AMoC to finish casting a Focusing Shot is not such a big deal.

Yah, I was wondering about that one as well. 

 

What do you think about LnL proc though?   If I just start a FS, and I notice LnL proc I have been moving to cancel it, and spammed ES's.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Minigun

[Iridar 80]

I sort of expected a little bit bigger difference than that, but it still goes to reinforce my belief that explosive shot just isn't worth using single target, with the exceptions of filling in holes like you said. 

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 

Yah, I was wondering about that one as well. 

 

What do you think about LnL proc though?   If I just start a FS, and I notice LnL proc I have been moving to cancel it, and spammed ES's.

Doing that is probably a DPS loss. I'm not sure that canceling shots is even possible in simcraft, I'll take a look. 

[Minigun 1]

Doing that is probably a DPS loss. I'm not sure that canceling shots is even possible in simcraft, I'll take a look. 

Well here is another quandary. 

 

What about if LnL procs during focusing shot, but I am considerably into the cast.  I won't cancel it in this situation.  However, sometimes this will cause me to go over cap.  So, in such situations, I queue up an AS to drop below 100 focus, and then proceed to use the LnL procs.

 

For example,

6.5 focus regen per sec

2.2 sec cast = Focusing Shot

 

Start at 30 focus,

30 + 2.2*6.5 + 50 = 95 focus

 

LnL procs 2 free ES = 2 Globals without spending focus

95 + 2*6.5 = 103 focus

8 focus wasted.

 

Technically this means I already F'ed up, because I should have dumped AS beforehand, but I am not perfect.  I would imagine you can't sim mistakes, but I was just curious as to what your opinion would be in that situation.

[Iridar 80]

Doing that is probably a DPS loss. I'm not sure that canceling shots is even possible in simcraft, I'll take a look. 

I have checked, and I think it's impossible to interrupt non-channeled casts in simcraft. 

I still tried to apply the code used to interrupt channeled spells, but it gave me the same DPS, so I assume it didn't work.

 

 

Well here is another quandary. 

 

What about if LnL procs during focusing shot, but I am considerably into the cast.  I won't cancel it in this situation.  However, sometimes this will cause me to go over cap.  So, in such situations, I queue up an AS to drop below 100 focus, and then proceed to use the LnL procs.

 

For example,

6.5 focus regen per sec

2.2 sec cast = Focusing Shot

 

Start at 30 focus,

30 + 2.2*6.5 + 50 = 95 focus

 

LnL procs 2 free ES = 2 Globals without spending focus

95 + 2*6.5 = 103 focus

8 focus wasted.

 

Technically this means I already F'ed up, because I should have dumped AS beforehand, but I am not perfect.  I would imagine you can't sim mistakes, but I was just curious as to what your opinion would be in that situation.

In this case it's not a mistake, clearly you could not have avoided overcapping. Even simcraft wastes ~1.6% focus due to overcapping, I assume because of the same reasons - L'n'L proccing during FS cast. 

 

---

EDIT: With TotH you should cast AS only when you have >=35 Focus. Because that's the amount of focus you need to have to cast an AS, and then immediately cast L'n'L if it procs. 

 

But yeah, if you use Steady Focus, you should probably dump focus as soon as you can, because even if L'n'L procs when you're at zero focus, passive regen should be enough to generate focus needed to cast third Explosive Shot. 

 

EDIT2: I have simmed it, and there was no real difference between dumping focus when you're at 35 or at 30.

---

We indeed can check what would happen if simcraft would - like you - use an Arcane Shot if the Hunter is at >95 focus and there's an L'n'L proc. 

 

Here are the results. "Overcap" refers to using AS if L'n'L is up and you're sitting at >95 focus. 

On average, this happened 4-5 times per fight. Seems that there's no real difference here too. 

Edited January 2, 2015 by Iridar

[Iscott 0]

Is barrage better single target for Surv or is glaive still supreme and wondering if to cast glaive of cd or is it only good for precast 

[Iridar 80]

Is barrage better single target for Surv or is glaive still supreme and wondering if to cast glaive of cd or is it only good for precast 

You should sim it for your gear to know for sure, but in latest simcraft version, by default, nor GT, nor Barrage is used in single target, which should be an indication.

 

For my gear, Barrage is a small DPS loss, and GT is barely worth using. So yeah, precast only, but I wouldn't even bother with it. 

[Iscott 0]

So what do u think for steady focus or thrill which talent is best 

[Iridar 80]

So what do u think for steady focus or thrill which talent is best 

Answer to that is in the first post of this thread.

[Iscott 0]

Why do u use LW over FS

[Iridar 80]

Why do u use LW over FS

Me personally?

[Iscott 0]

Yeah 

[Iscott 0]

So as well what should I run with a crit pet or mastery pet 

[Iridar 80]

Why do u use LW over FS

It's much easier to play with LW, and it's more straightforward. 

With pet, you will lose DPS each time you need to switch targets, or if target is on the move, or if target is out of melee range.

 

That, and Focusing Shot is harder to use, because it can't be cast on the move, because it's such a long cast that gives so much focus all at once. It's easy to overcap or delay high priority shots. 

 

On paper, Focusing Shot + Steady Focus gives better DPS than Thrill of the Hunt + Lone Wolf, but realistically it's probably only going to be usable on fights without much movement, like Butcher and Kargath, and even then it's easy to lose whatever DPS you gained, due to making mistakes in rotation, because you're not used to using FS. 

 

So as well what should I run with a crit pet or mastery pet 

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