Azortharion's 6.2.2 MM Hunter Guide

[Iridar 80]

How much does BM scale behind SV in fights 

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17N.html

[Iscott 0]

How actuate are these sims because to be honest those are patchwerk style fights and what there is like two in highmaul I need to see realistic numbers  

[Atrais 38]

How actuate are these sims because to be honest those are patchwerk style fights and what there is like two in highmaul I need to see realistic numbers  

 

If you're looking for slightly more realistic numbers, you can try sites liek WarcraftLogs:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#dataset=75&aggregate=amount&difficulty=4

 

That chart shows all ilvls in Heroic Highmaul, filtering down to the top 25% of all players.  It's not necessarily better or worse than SimCraft, just a different way of looking at the numbers.  You can play around with the filters to see Normal v Heroic v Mythic, change ilvls, etc.

BM seems to be quite low on Heroic, but doing fairly well on Mythic.

[Iridar 80]

How actuate are these sims because to be honest those are patchwerk style fights and what there is like two in highmaul I need to see realistic numbers  

Of course the sims are for patchwerk fights. They aren't for getting realistic numbers, they are for determining which spec, if played flawlessly, can squeeze out most DPS out of available gear. 

 

You won't see realistic numbers anywhere, including the logs, because BM is the least played hunter spec right now, and all the high-skill hunters are likely to run as MM / SV, since this is what provides the most DPS. So, say, top 100 SV players are likely to be better geared, and be of higher skill than top 100 BM players. If those top 100 SV players would have specced BM, they would have been likely to outDPS previous top 100 BM players. 

 

If you want to see "realistic" numbers, you should spec BM yourself, and raid as that for a week. In the end, your own performance is what matters. 

 

Realistic DPS = ( Your Gear * Spec's Potential * Your Skill ) / (Fight's Complexity * Spec's Complexity)

 

Simcraft is used to determine the Spec's Potential, and only that. If you import your own gear, you can find out which spec and talents have most potential for your gear. 

 

Spec's Complexity affects DPS as well. I.e. TotH LW SV has straightforward playstyle, hard to mess up, so having DPS close to what simcraft calculates for your gear will be easy. Focusing Shot MM, on the other hand, is much harder to use efficiently, so human's DPS is likely to be way below what simcraft shows, especially in live raid situation, where you won't be able to have 100% uptime on Sniper Training, and you will have to interrupt Focusing Shot casts to move. 

 

You keep asking questions we can't possible have answers to, because there are too many variables in that Realistic DPS formula. We can tell how specs relate to each other, but by how much - depends on your gear, your skill, and what are you going to be doing with them. 

 

Currently, Survival Seems to be offering the highest DPS, especially if you have lots of multistrike. Take TotH, LW, Barrage, Stampede. Use Barrage only to AOE 3+ targets. Keep Serpent Sting on as many targets as you can. This spec + talent combo is very mobile, easy to play, and gives the straightest path to achieving the highest potential DPS your gear can provide. 

[Doneyear 0]

Hey, haven't checked forums in awhile and noticed for survival FS + SF are simming better than Lone Wolf (as updated on the first post). I don't normally play Survival except for a few fights where I need to move alot, most notably Imperator because I am on brand duty so I don't think I'll be able to utilize FS+SF here.

 

Is FS+SF > LW+TotH for survival because the spec relies less on crits as compared to MM? Just trying to understand why this is and not read paper blindly. 

 

Also, a friend of mine is leveling up a hunter and he wants to know the "best" spec. All specs generally sim around the same, give or take ~1K dps, so is it right for me to say it's all preference in what spec he wants to choose?

 

Thanks.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Doneyear

[Niix 169]

Hey, haven't checked forums in awhile and noticed for survival FS + SF are simming better than Lone Wolf (as updated on the first post). I don't normally play Survival except for a few fights where I need to move alot, most notably Imperator because I am on brand duty so I don't think I'll be able to utilize FS+SF here.

 

Is FS+SF > LW+TotH for survival because the spec relies less on crits as compared to MM? Just trying to understand why this is and not read paper blindly. 

 

Also, a friend of mine is leveling up a hunter and he wants to know the "best" spec. All specs generally sim around the same, give or take ~1K dps, so is it right for me to say it's all preference in what spec he wants to choose?

 

Thanks.

 

So there are really two schools of thought. SV is good because when you're out of range of the boss you still do damage through your pet and dots, but with MM people overestimate just how much DPS they are actually gonna lose. For example look at brackenspore, you'd think doing flamethrowers and being away from the raid would lean more towards SV, but it's MM all the way because of adds, and cooldowns.

[Iridar 80]

So there are really two schools of thought. SV is good because when you're out of range of the boss you still do damage through your pet and dots, but with MM people overestimate just how much DPS they are actually gonna lose. For example look at brackenspore, you'd think doing flamethrowers and being away from the raid would lean more towards SV, but it's MM all the way because of adds, and cooldowns.

How adds make the fight "MM all the way"? 

If anything, SV gets more DPS on adds fights due to multi dotting. 

[Niix 169]

How adds make the fight "MM all the way"? 

If anything, SV gets more DPS on adds fights due to multi dotting. 

 

When an add, specifically one with a lot of health, comes into the fight on Brackenspore. You effectively have another careful aim phase. Giving you AiS crits and what not. I honestly couldn't tell you what's better at this point.

[Ulgratron 4]

When an add, specifically one with a lot of health, comes into the fight on Brackenspore. You effectively have another careful aim phase. Giving you AiS crits and what not. I honestly couldn't tell you what's better at this point.

Also chimaera cleave.

[Iridar 80]

When an add, specifically one with a lot of health, comes into the fight on Brackenspore. You effectively have another careful aim phase. Giving you AiS crits and what not. I honestly couldn't tell you what's better at this point.

Thank god for simcraft! I'll see if I can sim it. 

 

Also chimaera cleave.

Chimaera has very small cleave distance, smaller than what is usually required to cleave targets, so you will be hitting 2 targets very rarely, unless you specifically ask tanks to keep both targets very close. 

[Iridar 80]

Thank god for simcraft! I'll see if I can sim it. 

 

Well either I'm stupid or "/summon_add" boss ability is bugged in simcraft. Since every other enemy ability works perfectly fine, I assume the latter, with 75% probability. 

I have filed a ticket with simcraft, will see how it goes.

[Iridar 80]

When an add, specifically one with a lot of health, comes into the fight on Brackenspore. You effectively have another careful aim phase. Giving you AiS crits and what not. I honestly couldn't tell you what's better at this point.

I was able to sim it after all!  So freaking pleased with myself right now.

 

All I had to do is to add this at the start of the simcraft profile:

enemy=brackensporeraid_events+=/adds,name=carnivore,count=1,duration=60,cooldown=120,first=60

Starting at 1 minute, one add will be appearing for a minute each two minutes, which roughly reflects the real fight, I timed it based on the video I recorded.

 

Then I had to manually create an Action Priority List for secondary target brackenspore_carnivore1, because by default player doesn't switch targets to adds, and I had to make sure MM takes proper benefit from additional CA phase. 

 

Talents: TotH - Stampede - Lone Wolf.

 

I compared both MM and SV with my gear, without attempting any gear or talent optimization (like crit enchants for MM or Focusing Shot for SV). 

Both MM and SV would only use Barrage and Explosive Trap when secondary target was present. SV profile would constantly alternate Arcane Shot targets to ensure optimal uptime of Serpent Sting on both targets. At least I hope so really hard  

 

Simcraft results for single target fight.

 

Simcraft results for "brackenspore" fight. 

 

As you can see, MM gets a lot of DPS on 2 target fight, but that's only because Chimaera Shot always hits two targets when the secondary target is present, which is unrealistic on real Brackenspore fight. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find a way to make CS always hit only 1 target, so I had to calculate the difference manually. Napkin math:

 

18.75 CS casts targeted at secondary target, 23.87 casts targeted at the boss, for a total of 42.62 CS casts per fight, resulting in CS doing 9180 DPS. 

 

But, casts made into add would also hit the boss, so those 18.75 CS casts would lead to 37.5 CS damage instances. We also have 23.87 CS damage instances when CS is cast at the boss when the add isn't present, which makes for a total of 61.37 damage instances, resulting in 9180 DPS.

 

9180 / 61.37 = 149.58 

This is the DPS caused by one damage instance of CS. 

 

18.75 * 149.85 = 2804

This is the surplus DPS that MM got by unrealistically hitting two targets instead of one. 

 

Real MM DPS on 2 target fight:  29956 - 2804 = 27152

---------

As you can see, MM barely, if at all, gets any DPS from additional CA and KS phases during the fight, as I suspected, and the increased DPS probably comes from the Exp. Trap and Barrage. 

 

SV gets +1100 DPS for periodic access to second target, MM gets +170. I'm absolutely certain that MM correctly switches to the second target, that's reflected by the actions in APL that will only be performed on second target. 

 

I could wiggle around Barrage and Exp. Trap in the priority to see if that would result in DPS increases, but by now I'm so tired I don't even care. 

 

For reference, simcraft profiles: 2targets 1target

Edited January 9, 2015 by Iridar

[Ulgratron 4]

SV also has the advantage on Mythic of being able to multidot the 4 sporeshooters + fungus.  Not to mention the loss of Sniper Training during flamethrower burns.  I couldn't imagine going back to MM for brackenspore Mythic.

[dirtysocks 0]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/AkJ6xzDf7a3CXZm8#fight=2&type=damage-done&source=22

 

This is my run on brackenspore as MM from a couple of nights ago, I'm definitely not as good as some at managing burning infusion stacks though.

 

Some highlights though as MM

• 204k kill shots, 3.1M damage total from killshot
• 82% crits from aimed shots, crits of over 130k
• 207k Chimaera shots, 111k ave damage (assume some of these cleave i cant tell)

Also, why would you want to dot the spore shooters? killing them ASAP is a massive priority to save raid damage (particuarly when they overlap with infesting spores)

 

I can see how theoretically multidotting as survival can be an increase in dps, but if your guild is struggling a little with getting adds down quickly(as my guild was) in order to save raid damage, i say stick with MM

[Ulgratron 4]

The new simcraft update includes Explosive Trap for SV and completely ignores both Glaive and Barrage in the sim rotation for single target for me.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Ulgratron

[CyaSteve 3]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/AkJ6xzDf7a3CXZm8#fight=2&type=damage-done&source=22

 

This is my run on brackenspore as MM from a couple of nights ago, I'm definitely not as good as some at managing burning infusion stacks though.

 

Some highlights though as MM

• 204k kill shots, 3.1M damage total from killshot
• 82% crits from aimed shots, crits of over 130k
• 207k Chimaera shots, 111k ave damage (assume some of these cleave i cant tell)

Also, why would you want to dot the spore shooters? killing them ASAP is a massive priority to save raid damage (particuarly when they overlap with infesting spores)

 

I can see how theoretically multidotting as survival can be an increase in dps, but if your guild is struggling a little with getting adds down quickly(as my guild was) in order to save raid damage, i say stick with MM

 

Dotting the spore shooters because people love to see big meter numbers ^.^ That said though there is a slight bonus to dotting both then turning back to focus on one and take it down.  If your healers don't have an issue with healing a couple extra spores then dotting and returning to main target is fine and may in fact help get the boss down quicker.   Everything is always relative.  I like playing MM on Brack though because I like to be the one in raid to do those extra jobs and being able to killshot a sporeshooter to explode it is really nice.

[CyaSteve 3]

How adds make the fight "MM all the way"? 

If anything, SV gets more DPS on adds fights due to multi dotting. 

Parses would support MM being stronger on Brack than SV as well.  As Nnx said the free CA phases + the use of your Cooldowns + Blue Shroom + Potion + Kill Shot can generate some pretty insane numbers.

[Iridar 80]

Parses would support MM being stronger on Brack than SV as well.  As Nnx said the free CA phases + the use of your Cooldowns + Blue Shroom + Potion + Kill Shot can generate some pretty insane numbers.

Well I have simmed it, results are in posts above. MM doesn't get a significant DPS boost out of additional CA and KS phases.

[CyaSteve 3]

Well I have simmed it, results are in posts above. MM doesn't get a significant DPS boost out of additional CA and KS phases.

Sims hardly ever give an accurate look at fights. They're decent, at best, baselines but there's simply too much that's reliant on player skill to say for certain that a Sim is worth using for absolute decisions.

[Iridar 80]

Sims hardly ever give an accurate look at fights. They're decent, at best, baselines but there's simply too much that's reliant on player skill to say for certain that a Sim is worth using for absolute decisions.

Sims are accurate when we're talking about DPS, and this is what this about. A scientific question - by how much, if at all, MM benefits from CA and KS phases on adds. Simcraft is a scientific tool that provides a scientific answer. 

[Smuggelvodka 0]

I'm currently playing a hunter and would need some help with rotation prio & opener as a survival with the following speccs:

 

Specc 1: ToTH & Focusing shot

 

Specc 2: Steady focus & Focusing shot

 

 

Would be thankful if someone that got some knowledge could throw a reply with the rotation priority & the opener sequence for the 2x following speccs i wrote above.

 

Best regards.

[Orthios 271]

I'm currently playing a hunter and would need some help with rotation prio & opener as a survival with the following speccs:

 

Specc 1: ToTH & Focusing shot

 

Specc 2: Steady focus & Focusing shot

 

 

Would be thankful if someone that got some knowledge could throw a reply with the rotation priority & the opener sequence for the 2x following speccs i wrote above.

 

Best regards. 

 

Answer is in the OP.

 

Opener

 

1. Pre-Cast Glaive Toss / Focusing Shot if using Steady Focus
2. On Use / Crows
3. Explosive Shot
4. Black Arrow
5. Arcane Shot

Edited January 9, 2015 by Orthios

[Smuggelvodka 0]

Answer is in the OP.

I read that the OP was outdated tho?

 

and should i use GT or barrage? and should they be on CD or how do i manage those atm?

 

I read you mostly shouldnt use GT unless u have to focus dump and barrage on 2x+ targets only?

Edited January 9, 2015 by Smuggelvodka

[Orthios 271]

I read that the OP was outdated tho?

 

and should i use GT or barrage? and should they be on CD or how do i manage those atm?

 

I read you mostly shouldnt use GT unless u have to focus dump and barrage on 2x+ targets only?

The Class Guide here on IV was outdated, not this one.  GT should only be used when you don't want to spend 30 focus on AS or need to move.  Barrage should be taken on any fight with multiple targets (all but Butcher and Kargath ground, but even here, GT is such a small dps gain you can spec barrage and simply not use it).  

[Kalibos 1]

Should I always be casting something, even if it delays Chimaera Shot by a second? I often find myself in the situation where everything is on cooldown and AS and/or SS/FS will slightly delay my next CS (most often by 0.5-1 seconds). Is there an acceptable length of downtime so as to cast CS asap?