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[Atrais 38]

You have to consider that with the perk and 2p bonus, we will have a lot more focus regen than we do now.  This in turn leads us to not need to double cast steady shot as much, and thus lowers our steady focus uptime.  More often than not, if we would double cast steady shot to refresh steady focus, we'd be capping focus when we could've used SS>AiS and done more damage, with a decent chance of refunding the focus and coming out slightly focus positive.  And there's Chimaera Shot and GT/Barrage coming off cooldown and interrupting a chance to double cast steady shot, since steady shot is the lowest priority ability we have, and not using using CS/GT/Barrage on cd is a dps loss.

 

Hmm, seems like you didnt read the 2nd half of what I wrote, thats essentially what I said :) 

I agree, I feel like we will either be letting SF fall off or sacrificing potential DPS once we get the perk and Tier 17 bonus

[Orthios 271]

I agree, I feel like we will either be letting SF fall off or sacrificing potential DPS once we get the perk and Tier 17 bonus

And that's why I'm not taking SF, or, at least, one reason I won't be.  The other is that I really hate the change from MoP SF to WoD SF.  The 15% haste was very nice for smoothing out the rotation even further.

[Iridar 80]

 

Yeah, 55% is way too low, completely agreed, even a total novice should be able to top that.  I was surprised that the sims were letting it come out to that, sounds like a problem with priotization within the simulation.

 

That being said, one thing that still bother me at SF is "Will having to cast two SSs when you dont necessarily need to hamper our DPS?".  If my SF is about to fall off, but I have already enough focus to cast AiS, it seems like I am sacrificing DPS to keep the buff up.  Granted, with your CS windows, that might never happen, but I worry that with the Focus regen granted by our perk and our Tier-17 2-bonus that we will be "wasting" SSs just to keep the buff rolling.  Especially when you consider that ToTH could potentially allow us to cast three AiS in a row for an overall Focus cost of 6 (AiS costs 30 under ToTH and refunds 28 Focus on a crit).  Since the name of the game, so to speak, is maximizing the # of CS and AiS you get to cast, especially within CA windows, I think it will come down to which talents let's us cast the most.

Let's calculate!

 

RF lasts 15 seconds. To maintain 100% uptime on SF, we will need to cast a Steady Shot pair only once during those 15 seconds. 

 

T17 Mythic gives us 13% haste raid buffed and 38% crit. Let's go ahead and assume AiS will always crit during CA and refund 28 focus, bringing down the AiS cost to 22 focus during CA. 

 

Under RF, we will have 58% haste, which will mean AiS cast time of 1.58 seconds and passive focus regen of 9.5 per second.

This means we can squeeze maximum of 5 AiS casts between 2 Chimaeras. 

Ideally, we want to cast 2x SS (~ 1.25 second casts), 2x CS and use the remaining time on AiS: 15 - 1.25 * 2 - 1 * 2 = 10.5 

10.5 / 1.58 =  6 AiS. 

 

During those 15 seconds we will regen 9.5 * 15 + 14 * 2 = 170 focus, while needing to spend 35 * 2 + 22 * 6 = 202 focus. 

You will need to start the RF at high focus, because that Steady Shot pair will be somewhere in the middle of those 15 seconds.

 

This was ideal situation with SF. Now, let's compare it to ideal situation with TotH. 

We cast 2x CS, and spend remaining 13 seconds on AiS. 13 / 1.58 = 8 AiS. 

Let's go ahead and assume each AiS cast will be affected by TotH, bringing down the cost of AiS to 2 focus. 

Passive focus regen: 6.3 * 15 = 94.5 focus. Need to spend: 35 * 2 + 2 * 8 = 86 focus. 

 

So, in ideal conditions TotH will allow 2 more AiS casts during RF, however, if you need to cast at least 2x SS during that RF, TotH offers no advantage. 

 

Also, let's approach this from another angle - do we really need to have SF up during RF?

After all, letting SF fall for JUST A FEW SECONDS  is not the end of the world, as long as we have enough focus to cast only AiS and CS during RF. 

 

8x AiS and 2x CS cost 35 * 2 + 22 * 8 = 246 focus. Worst case scenario, no SF uptime during CA, we will regen 94.5 focus. That leaves us ~30 focus short even if we start at 120 focus. We will get that extra 30 focus if we have SF up for at least 5 seconds during RF. So yes, it seems that SF is essential during RF. 

TotH proccing once is the equivalent of gaining 60 focus, but if TotH doesn't proc, we'll be in the same hell we'd be without SF uptime. 

 

Always starting RF at 120 focus seems unrealistic, so we'll probably need to cast at least one SS, or maybe a whole SS pair during RF. But, it's possible we'll need to do that with TotH as well. 

 

Once again, it's consistency vs RNG issue. I'd rather be 100% sure that I'll be able to get off 6 AiS casts, rather then guess I'll maybe get 8. 

 

The summary is that highest and lowest points of both SF and TotH during RF are the same: if TotH doesn't proc / we can't ensure at least partial SF uptime, we'll need to cast one or two SS during RF. But in ideal conditions they're both capable of casting up to 8 AiS. 

 

Which outcome is more frequent remains to be seen.

 

Also, we have yet to calculate the following: it's entirely possible that TotH will get more AiS casts during RF, while SF will mean more AiS casts overall. In other words, it's possible that SF allows us to gain more focus overall than TotH allows us to save. 

This is something that should be simmable, once simulationcraft is fixed. 

 

To answer this specific part:

"Will having to cast two SSs when you dont necessarily need to hamper our DPS?".  If my SF is about to fall off, but I have already enough focus to cast AiS, it seems like I am sacrificing DPS to keep the buff up. 

 

 

As long as you don't overcap on focus by casting 2x SS to get SF instead of casting AiS, you don't sacrifice anything. You'll use that focus in the next cycle. Unless you really-really need to kill that specific target ASAP, in which case you will have to let SF to fall off. It's not that big of a deal as it once was, when SF gave us haste. 

IMO it's better to have SF and let it fall off rather than rely on TotH, that may or may not proc when you need it.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Iridar

[Atrais 38]

And that's why I'm not taking SF, or, at least, one reason I won't be.  The other is that I really hate the change from MoP SF to WoD SF.  The 15% haste was very nice for smoothing out the rotation even further.

 

Since ToTH is far superior for leveling, questing, and, most-likely, dungeons, I will definitely be rolling with that for the next couple of weeks.

[Iridar 80]

So I went calculated a curious thing. Current simulationcraft uses TotH and shows following resource stats during the fight:

Passive regen: ~2200 focus.

TotH savings: 1300 focus

 

Now let's imagine we had Steady Focus instead of TotH. How high an uptime we would need for SF to rival TotH?

 

TotH: 2200 + 1300 = 3500 total.

SF: 2200 * 1.5 * Uptime = 3300 * Uptime.

Whoopsies! As you can see, even if SF has 100% uptime, TotH will result in higher total savings. So I guess that settles it, unless there's some sort of caveat that only real simulation can show. 

I'm not giving up on SF just yet, but it's certainly not a point in its favor. 

 

EDIT: Taking a look at my Excel spreadsheet, I just realized we'd need much more than T17 level of Haste before we can use shot sets I posted above, since all of them will delay Chimaera for more than a second. 

 

EDIT: Guys at elitists seem to think that SF is underpowered, and is likely to be buffed by the time 6.1 hits us.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Iridar

[Niix 169]

I'll comment on barrage after I'm done resimming everything I have in the guide.

[Iridar 80]

I'll comment on barrage after I'm done resimming everything I have in the guide.

I'd be curious to hear what you think about "my" idea about using sets of abilities, though it won't be viable until Steady Focus is buffed / TotH nerfed. 

It also needs to be adjusted for WoD super low haste levels, as my calculations were for 33% haste; so I'm just mostly curious what you think about that playstyle as a whole.

It involves monitoring focus and deciding the number of different shots you will use until the next CS, and then using them in optimal order.

[Niix 169]

I'd be curious to hear what you think about "my" idea about using sets of abilities, though it won't be viable until Steady Focus is buffed / TotH nerfed. 

It also needs to be adjusted for WoD super low haste levels, as my calculations were for 33% haste; so I'm just mostly curious what you think about that playstyle as a whole.

It involves monitoring focus and deciding the number of different shots you will use until the next CS, and then using them in optimal order.

 

You'll never get to 33% haste because it's not as good as Crit or Multistrike. Fully buffed at 700 ilvl your haste is 9.6%.

[Iridar 80]

You'll never get to 33% haste because it's not as good as Crit or Multistrike. Fully buffed at 700 ilvl your haste is 9.6%.

Why did you choose to respond to the most irrelevant part of the post?... As I said, sets need to be adjusted for low WoD haste levels, doesn't mean the playstyle won't be possible.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Iridar

[Niix 169]

Why did you choose to respond to the most irrelevant part of the post?... As I said, sets need to be adjusted for low WoD haste levels, doesn't mean the playstyle won't be possible.

 

I chose to respond to your comment, I haven't read the post yet. I'm busy updating my guide. What I can say is I'm fairly certain trying to calculate what you're doing based off haste is going to be a lot of annoyance and it will likely reduce your overall DPS more than it will increase it. The shot priority in place is there for a reason, deviating from it is your own choice but will likely be more trouble than it's worth.

 

Just my two cents, I'll read it later.

[Atrais 38]

Niix,

 

A few things you can maybe answer for me now or in your new guide, as I have had them kicking around in my head this past weekend.

1) Suggestions for leveling talents.

Granted, this is probably not a major concern, but I am curious what you think the ideal choices would be.  I planned on rolling with ToTH, Blink Strikes, and Barrage, as I tend to pull 5-6 targets at once and mop them up, but maybe there is a better way.

2) Professions

I know that, in theory, professions should no longer provide a direct DPS benefit, but I am curious if there are any indirect benefits I havent considered.  I already plan to stick with engineering for the on-use goodies like Nitro Boosts.  Do any other professions provide something similar for Hunters?

3) Tier 100 Talent for AoE-Heavy fights

 

Didn't see this listed already, but maybe I missed it.  I would assume that Exotic Munitions would provide the best, but maybe Focusing Shot?
 

4) Survival after Buffs

Latest sims seem to show Survival performing much better at all stages of progression, worth picking up again, esepcially for AoE fights?

 

EDIT - Survival performing much better than it used to, not better than MM

Edited November 10, 2014 by Atrais

[Niix 169]

Niix,

 

A few things you can maybe answer for me now or in your new guide, as I have had them kicking around in my head this past weekend.

1) Suggestions for leveling talents.

Granted, this is probably not a major concern, but I am curious what you think the ideal choices would be.  I planned on rolling with ToTH, Blink Strikes, and Barrage, as I tend to pull 5-6 targets at once and mop them up, but maybe there is a better way.

2) Professions

I know that, in theory, professions should no longer provide a direct DPS benefit, but I am curious if there are any indirect benefits I havent considered.  I already plan to stick with engineering for the on-use goodies like Nitro Boosts.  Do any other professions provide something similar for Hunters?

3) Tier 100 Talent for AoE-Heavy fights

 

Didn't see this listed already, but maybe I missed it.  I would assume that Exotic Munitions would provide the best, but maybe Focusing Shot?

 

4) Survival after Buffs

Latest sims seem to show Survival performing much better at all stages of progression, worth picking up again, esepcially for AoE fights?

 

EDIT - Survival performing much better than it used to, not better than MM

 

 

1) Nah not really gonna care about leveling stuff. Just use whatever.

 

2) No.

 

3) Will add that in once I redo everything else.

 

4) New 4 Target Cleave:

 

[Atrais 38]

1) Nah not really gonna care about leveling stuff. Just use whatever.

 

2) No.

 

3) Will add that in once I redo everything else.

 

4) New 4 Target Cleave:

 

 

1) Thanks, wasn't too concerned, just curious

 

2) Thanks, didnt think so

 

3) Looking forward to it

4) Okay, so SV still behind. 

[Iridar 80]

Professions

I know that, in theory, professions should no longer provide a direct DPS benefit, but I am curious if there are any indirect benefits I havent considered.  I already plan to stick with engineering for the on-use goodies like Nitro Boosts.  Do any other professions provide something similar for Hunters?

1) Actually, I think it's better to use the engineering trinket that gives you a temporary shield, because AFAIK nitro boost shares cooldown with agility potion, while shield is on its own, separate cooldown. That said, I'm not sure if the shield will scale into WoD. Currently it provides a ~10k HP shield, which is ~10% of my HP, I use it in a macro with Healthstone/Health Potion, can occasionally save life. 

 

I use parachute cloak (with disengage) very often, and I can't imagine my life without it.

 

Jeeves is also very useful, as I don't own mammoth mount, and don't plan to. 

Crafting your own weapon will mean the world for MM in WoD, seeing as weapon DPS is our top stat by far. 

 

2) Prior to WoD I'd recommend leatherworking, because it used to provide us with very cheap powerful bracer and leggings enchants, but now I'm not sure, as the cheap versions are a bit weaker than normal ones, and bracer enchant is gone for good.

 

I'm still keeping it. 

 

Drums of Speed were infinitely useful, but they're limited for <= 90 level characters. 

 

3) On this note, there's list of consumables I think you should stack on, as they will make leveling easier: agility flasks and potions, health potions, Drums of Forgotten Kings = +4% stats buff, can be used by anyone. Same goes for Drums of Rage (weaker bloodlust). We have pets for that, but this way you can use your pet to give some another buff. 

 

There are also stamina scrolls, but meh. 

 

Importantly, there's this Guild Battle Standard, which increases XP and reputation gains for all guildmembers within 100m, including you. Lasts 15 min, 10 min CD. There's no reason not to use it, so make sure to acquire it. Will also be useful when you will run dungeons with guildies, so several of you can rotate through cooldowns as you progress through the dungeon. 

[Niix 169]

1) Actually, I think it's better to use the engineering trinket that gives you a temporary shield, because AFAIK nitro boost shares cooldown with agility potion, while shield is on its own, separate cooldown. That said, I'm not sure if the shield will scale into WoD. Currently it provides a ~10k HP shield, which is ~10% of my HP, I use it in a macro with Healthstone/Health Potion, can occasionally save life. 

 

I use parachute cloak (with disengage) very often, and I can't imagine my life without it.

 

Jeeves is also very useful, as I don't own mammoth mount, and don't plan to. 

Crafting your own weapon will mean the world for MM in WoD, seeing as weapon DPS is our top stat by far. 

 

2) Prior to WoD I'd recommend leatherworking, because it used to provide us with very cheap powerful bracer and leggings enchants, but now I'm not sure, as the cheap versions are a bit weaker than normal ones, and bracer enchant is gone for good.

 

I'm still keeping it. 

 

Drums of Speed were infinitely useful, but they're limited for <= 90 level characters. 

 

3) On this note, there's list of consumables I think you should stack on, as they will make leveling easier: agility flasks and potions, health potions, Drums of Forgotten Kings = +4% stats buff, can be used by anyone. Same goes for Drums of Rage (weaker bloodlust). We have pets for that, but this way you can use your pet to give some another buff. 

 

There are also stamina scrolls, but meh. 

 

Importantly, there's this Guild Battle Standard, which increases XP and reputation gains for all guildmembers within 100m, including you. Lasts 15 min, 10 min CD. There's no reason not to use it, so make sure to acquire it. Will also be useful when you will run dungeons with guildies, so several of you can rotate through cooldowns as you progress through the dungeon. 

 

For a pure DPS standpoint no profession is better than another. You could just as easily buy that stuff.

[Atrais 38]

1) Actually, I think it's better to use the engineering trinket that gives you a temporary shield, because AFAIK nitro boost shares cooldown with agility potion, while shield is on its own, separate cooldown. That said, I'm not sure if the shield will scale into WoD. Currently it provides a ~10k HP shield, which is ~10% of my HP, I use it in a macro with Healthstone/Health Potion, can occasionally save life. 

 

I use parachute cloak (with disengage) very often, and I can't imagine my life without it.

 

Jeeves is also very useful, as I don't own mammoth mount, and don't plan to. 

Crafting your own weapon will mean the world for MM in WoD, seeing as weapon DPS is our top stat by far. 

 

2) Prior to WoD I'd recommend leatherworking, because it used to provide us with very cheap powerful bracer and leggings enchants, but now I'm not sure, as the cheap versions are a bit weaker than normal ones, and bracer enchant is gone for good.

 

I'm still keeping it. 

 

Drums of Speed were infinitely useful, but they're limited for <= 90 level characters. 

 

3) On this note, there's list of consumables I think you should stack on, as they will make leveling easier: agility flasks and potions, health potions, Drums of Forgotten Kings = +4% stats buff, can be used by anyone. Same goes for Drums of Rage (weaker bloodlust). We have pets for that, but this way you can use your pet to give some another buff. 

 

There are also stamina scrolls, but meh. 

 

Importantly, there's this Guild Battle Standard, which increases XP and reputation gains for all guildmembers within 100m, including you. Lasts 15 min, 10 min CD. There's no reason not to use it, so make sure to acquire it. Will also be useful when you will run dungeons with guildies, so several of you can rotate through cooldowns as you progress through the dungeon. 

 

Sharing a CD with Potions is not happening currently, so unless it starts happening at level 100 for some reason, I would say that is wrong.  The temporary shield is far less useful, in my experience, than being able to quickly move out of bad (e.g. IJ, Thok, Siege), reposition yourself for adds (e.g. Immerseus, Norushen, Garrosh Engineer) or soak a puddle (e.g. Malkorok).  Combined with Posthaste, it allows for 10-12 seconds for speed increase.

I agree that Eng is useful, I was curious about other profs.  Nothing else you mentioned is profession-specific, as Niix said.  I really wish they have let Alchemy keeps its bonus to Flask duration, but regardless, I will probably stay Alch/Eng because being able to transmute rare bars is usually helpful for Eng.

[Niix 169]

Sharing a CD with Potions is not happening currently, so unless it starts happening at level 100 for some reason, I would say that is wrong.  The temporary shield is far less useful, in my experience, than being able to quickly move out of bad (e.g. IJ, Thok, Siege), reposition yourself for adds (e.g. Immerseus, Norushen, Garrosh Engineer) or soak a puddle (e.g. Malkorok).  Combined with Posthaste, it allows for 10-12 seconds for speed increase.

I agree that Eng is useful, I was curious about other profs.  Nothing else you mentioned is profession-specific, as Niix said.  I really wish they have let Alchemy keeps its bonus to Flask duration, but regardless, I will probably stay Alch/Eng because being able to transmute rare bars is usually helpful for Eng.

 

The Nitro Boosts are considered a potion of speed. If you use it in the middle of combat, you can't use a potion.

[Atrais 38]

The Nitro Boosts are considered a potion of speed. If you use it in the middle of combat, you can't use a potion.

 

Did this just change recently? I am fairly sure this wasn't happening pre-6.0 and I hadn't noticed it right now either, but maybe I missed it because our fights are so short now.

[Niix 169]

Did this just change recently? I am fairly sure this wasn't happening pre-6.0 and I hadn't noticed it right now either, but maybe I missed it because our fights are so short now.

 

In 6.0, the profession changes messed with eng boost. Go test it.

[Atrais 38]

In 6.0, the profession changes messed with eng boost. Go test it.

 

Well, thats disappointing, to say the least

[Niix 169]

Well, thats disappointing, to say the least

 

Yeah it's annoying. Engineering isn't really any good anymore to be honest. I'm gonna keep it just for scopes, the glider, weapons and the engineering helm at 100.

[Atrais 38]

Yeah it's annoying. Engineering isn't really any good anymore to be honest. I'm gonna keep it just for scopes, the glider, weapons and the engineering helm at 100.

 

I refuse to play if I can't have my Jeeves, so will remain Engineering as well.  Yeah, yeah, there's "Walter" now, but Jeeves is the TRUE bank-access repair-bot

Edited November 10, 2014 by Atrais

[Niix 169]

I refuse to play if I can't have my Jeeves, so will remain Engineering as well.  Yeah, yeah, there's "Walter" now, but Jeeves is the TRUE bank-access repair-bot

 

I can't use it, anytime I click Jeeves it auto opens my bank.

[Iridar 80]

For a pure DPS standpoint no profession is better than another. You could just as easily buy that stuff.

Well I'd say being alive contributes to DPS. Parachute can also be used to bypass some mechanics that would otherwise make you take fall damage. We can also use Disengage for that, but timing that is much harder, and jumping away isn't always convenient. 

As for other stuff - yes, you can buy it. And you should. Because it would make leveling easier. Which is why I wrote it. In my post. That you quoted. 

 

Dude, I respect your work on guides and everything, but if you're replying to my posts, at least read and understand them. 

 

 

The Nitro Boosts are considered a potion of speed. If you use it in the middle of combat, you can't use a potion.

My mistake then, I didn't really use nitro boosts myself, I used belt grenades for 3% DPS increase when it was possible. 

 

I just heard other engineers saying "bah nitro now shares cooldown with potion", so I assumed they referred to potion of agility. Wasn't aware potions of speed are a thing, sounds interesting.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Iridar

[Atrais 38]

I can't use it, anytime I click Jeeves it auto opens my bank.

 

You mean it doesnt give you the prompt to choose between selling and bank access? That's definitely working for me, I was running Naxx-25 this morning and had to sell a bunch of greys, maybe an add-on is interfering with it?