Writing BM hunter's off? I think not!

[gumble85 2]

Hi guys and gals,

 

I just completed the MC event raid and have a screen shot of the last fights skada metre's.

 

People have said time and time again BM isn't very viable. In some fights like garry yes agreed, but.... Rag was a different story.

 

Now i came in in 8th spot yes as BM, but the lead hunter was BM spec and second best hunter was MM. It just proves that never right a spec off due to dps/dmg.

 

[Orthios 271]

Hi guys and gals,

 

I just completed the MC event raid and have a screen shot of the last fights skada metre's.

 

People have said time and time again BM isn't very viable. In some fights like garry yes agreed, but.... Rag was a different story.

 

Now i came in in 8th spot yes as BM, but the lead hunter was BM spec and second best hunter was MM. It just proves that never right a spec off due to dps/dmg.

I've yet to see or hear people writing off BM as being not viable, as in terms of DPS, BM ~<= SV, or in other words, BM can do about as well as SV with decent RNG/gear discrepancies (ok, maybe not quite, but they're fairly close).  Overall, BM is around middle of the Sim-C pack (so, patchwerk, turret fight), which translates to upper middle of the pack in game.

 

Also, that UI hurts my eyes, there's buttons everywhere and is just so cluttered.

[Atrais 38]

I've yet to see or hear people writing off BM as being not viable, as in terms of DPS, BM ~<= SV, or in other words, BM can do about as well as SV with decent RNG/gear discrepancies (ok, maybe not quite, but they're fairly close).  Overall, BM is around middle of the Sim-C pack (so, patchwerk, turret fight), which translates to upper middle of the pack in game.

 

Also, that UI hurts my eyes, there's buttons everywhere and is just so cluttered.

 

Yeah, nobody is writing off any hunter spec, all three are perfectly viable, no idea where this came from. 

BM also kicks MM's ass with more than 3 targets.

[gumble85 2]

Ok. I wasn't very specific in regards to the posts about peeps writing off the BM a bit due to T17 sets, etc. But nvm.

Edited November 23, 2014 by gumble85

[Niix 169]

BM is not entirely bad. It is very good when we have 5+ targets, which in dungeons is a lot of the time if you're doing big pulls with a good tank / heals. It will be viable during T17 as far as I can tell. The real "use" of AoE is yet to be determined because on some fights, AoE isn't necessary unless you're trying to inflate your DPS. 

[Iridar 80]

I feel like BM and MM have good relationship right now. MM with Lone Wolf can do more DPS in controlled PvE setting, while BM features much better survivability and utility, which is invaluable for PvP, soloing and leveling. Both specs have their place.

 

Of course, there's this "you have to be spec X to do Y" mentality, but I guess that's better than to have three specs trying to do everything at once and failing at all of it. 

 

Survival is the spec that needs attention, BM is fine, maybe a little damage boost. 

 

That said, I don't like people who play the spec just for the sake of playing the spec. Yesterday I was in challenge mode dungeon with our guildmaster - Fire mage with 5k DPS. When I pointed out that perhaps she would do more damage in Frost she laughed and said "I play WoW because of the Fire mage". So I had to bust my ass, damaging for me and for her.

 

Do what you like if you like doing it, but don't pretend it doesn't come at a cost. In case of BM the cost is that more often than not MM would do more damage, provided equal skill level, so you will burden the rest of the raid by playing what you like. 

 

The only time where it would be OK to play a spec with a lower potential is when you play other specs so bad that you're better off with just playing with what you know, but then you have to ask yourself if raiding is really for you.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Iridar

[Niix 169]

I feel like BM and MM have good relationship right now. MM with Lone Wolf can do more DPS in controlled PvE setting, while BM features much better survivability and utility, which is invaluable for PvP, soloing and leveling. Both specs have their place.

 

Of course, there's this "you have to be spec X to do Y" mentality, but I guess that's better than to have three specs trying to do everything at once and failing at all of it. 

 

Survival is the spec that needs attention, BM is fine, maybe a little damage boost. 

 

That said, I don't like people who play the spec just for the sake of playing the spec. Yesterday I was in challenge mode dungeon with our guildmaster - Fire mage with 5k DPS. When I pointed out that perhaps she would do more damage in Frost she laughed and said "I play WoW because of the Fire mage". So I had to bust my ass, damaging for me and for her.

 

Do what you like if you like doing it, but don't pretend it doesn't come at a cost. In case of BM the cost is that more often than not MM would do more damage, provided equal skill level, so you will burden the rest of the raid by playing what you like. 

 

The only time where it would be OK to play a spec with a lower potential is when you play other specs so bad that you're better off with just playing with what you know, but then you have to ask yourself if raiding is really for you.

 

This is perfect. If survival fills in the gap between AoE and single target DPS we will have a very good choice of specs. You can either forgo high single target DPS for a huge increase in AoE (BM), or you can do the opposite (MM), and if SV fills in the gap between the two with decent AoE and decent single target. I think we will have a very very good selection of specs for a very high range of situations.

[Atrais 38]

The only time where it would be OK to play a spec with a lower potential is when you play other specs so bad that you're better off with just playing with what you know, but then you have to ask yourself if raiding is really for you.

 

Or when the difference between the specs doesn't make such a big difference that its a burden.  The current BM/SV situation is like this.  BM/SV are less than MM, yes, but your raid is going to suddenly start wiping because you rolled BM/SV instead of MM.  You're not going to sink to the bottom of every chart because you choose BM/SV.  The difference between most DPS classes with multiple specs is relatively small right now, in the grand scheme of things (Mages being one notable exception).  Just because you aren't churning out literally every possible point of DPS your class can theoretically provide doesn't mean you are burdening your raid.

[Iridar 80]

This is perfect. If survival fills in the gap between AoE and single target DPS we will have a very good choice of specs. You can either forgo high single target DPS for a huge increase in AoE (BM), or you can do the opposite (MM), and if SV fills in the gap between the two with decent AoE and decent single target. I think we will have a very very good selection of specs for a very high range of situations.

You think SV is in good place right now? Maybe DPS-wise, but it seems just so boring - holding the same exact rotation throughout all fight, without even a DPS cooldown?.. 

 

I have to admit, I haven't really played SV since WoD changes, but from the outside it seems mindnumbingly dull. Maybe I'm biased; I've always resented Explosive Shot for being a DoT - explosion is bang, instant, you don't "explode" during several seconds. 

 

I'm not sure even what could be done to make it more interesting, though. I just don't think that "magical damage pseudo-DoT class" is an interesting theme. Maybe survival should return to its roots and introduce some melee abilities.

[Iridar 80]

Just because you aren't churning out literally every possible point of DPS your class can theoretically provide doesn't mean you are burdening your raid.

Erm, no, that's exactly what it means, and that's what progress raiding is all about - always doing your best, constant quest for improvement. "What else can I do to help my raid succeed?" is the question I ask myself all the time, and that's what all other raiders should be doing. 

 

Sure, maybe 1-2k DPS won't change much, but every little bit adds up. If the whole raid plays suboptimal they will be much worse than an optimal raid. 

 

Of course, now that we have four raiding difficulties, what I say isn't exactly true for all of them. Sure, LFR or normal probably won't wipe because you have 5k less DPS. So to clarify - I'm talking about the highest difficulty, where you will have a much harder time if not everyone is at their best. 

[Atrais 38]

You think SV is in good place right now? Maybe DPS-wise, but it seems just so boring - holding the same exact rotation throughout all fight, without even a DPS cooldown?..

 

SInce it does more DPS than BM on ST right now...yes, yes I do

 

I have to admit, I haven't really played SV since WoD changes, but from the outside it seems mindnumbingly dull. Maybe I'm biased; I've always resented Explosive Shot for being a DoT - explosion is bang, instant, you don't "explode" during several seconds.

 

 

As opposed to the utterly thrilling 3-button MM rotation?

 

I'm not sure even what could be done to make it more interesting, though. I just don't think that "magical damage pseudo-DoT class" is an interesting theme. Maybe survival should return to its roots and introduce some melee abilities.

 

Yes, just what the game needs, another melee agility class...

[Niix 169]

You think SV is in good place right now? Maybe DPS-wise, but it seems just so boring - holding the same exact rotation throughout all fight, without even a DPS cooldown?.. 

 

 

IF survival fills in the gap between AoE and single target DPS we will have a very good choice of specs.

 

I did not say survival was in a good spot right now.

 

 

Or when the difference between the specs doesn't make such a big difference that its a burden.  The current BM/SV situation is like this.  BM/SV are less than MM, yes, but your raid is going to suddenly start wiping because you rolled BM/SV instead of MM.  You're not going to sink to the bottom of every chart because you choose BM/SV.  The difference between most DPS classes with multiple specs is relatively small right now, in the grand scheme of things (Mages being one notable exception).  Just because you aren't churning out literally every possible point of DPS your class can theoretically provide doesn't mean you are burdening your raid.

 

There are two mindsets when it comes to raiding. There are those who will do every single thing possible to gain every single point of DPS out of their character, and there are those who will not. In my personal opinion, if I was a raid leader in a world first guild, I would ONLY take someone who was willing to play whatever spec is the highest, but for the average player, you're entirely correct, a raid wipe will not be determined by what spec your hunters are playing. If people want to play SV or BM, more power to them. That's why my guide has a BM and SV section, because not everybody is of the mindset that they're going to play a spec they don't like simply because it's more DPS.

 

I'm a Survival junkie at heart, it's the spec I've loved since Vanilla, but the only thing I love more, is competitive numbers, therefore if you look at my armory right now, I'm MM. Because it performs better. For 95% of players, they should play what they find fun because at the end of the day, this is a game and a lot of people forget that sometimes.

[Atrais 38]

Erm, no, that's exactly what it means, and that's what progress raiding is all about - always doing your best, constant quest for improvement. "What else can I do to help my raid succeed?" is the question I ask myself all the time, and that's what all other raiders should be doing. 

 

As somebody who actually leads raids, I would rather my raider being enjoying themselves than beeing miserable to chburn out an extra 2%-3% DPS, since it means they'll probably keep showing up.  If your raid wipes because one guy did 2%-3% less DPS, thats a problem with the raid, not that player.

 

Sure, maybe 1-2k DPS won't change much, but every little bit adds up. If the whole raid plays suboptimal they will be much worse than an optimal raid.

So? So my raid does worse than absolute perfection.  DId we kill the boss? Great.  Did we fail? Let's see what we can work on, its probably a mechanics issue, not a numbers issue (as 99% of raid issues are).  I have NEVER seen a raid wipe consistently because one or two 9or even three or four) DPS we're playing suboptimal classes.  No DPS class is so undertuned to be worthless right now.

 

So to clarify - I'm talking about the highest difficulty, where you will have a much harder time if not everyone is at their best.

 

 

In other words, you think I'm not?

 

[Niix 169]

The way that WoD raids are designed are NOT around min-maxing DPS. It's around performing mechanics properly.

[Atrais 38]

The way that WoD raids are designed are NOT around min-maxing DPS. It's around performing mechanics properly.

 

Which has basically been the case since WoTLK Naxx

[Niix 169]

Which has basically been the case since WoTLK Naxx

 

Well, not entirely. WoD has a new healing model that REALLY punishes people for standing in fire. You are no longer going to be instantly healed to full for fucking up a mechanic. You will likely die if you do it repeatedly.

[Atrais 38]

Well, not entirely. WoD has a new healing model that REALLY punishes people for standing in fire. You are no longer going to be instantly healed to full for fucking up a mechanic. You will likely die if you do it repeatedly.

 

I more meant that the raid success has IMO, since WoTLK, had much more to do with proper execution of mechanics rather than raw numbers, outside of a few fights.  You're definitely right about those brutal void zones now though, Heroics PuGs are not a fun place to try and heal right now :)

[Atrais 38]

SV's the priority is always, always the same, without any dynamic at all

 

It has Black Arrows procs, which add a ton a dynamism to the rotation.  It also have a much more powerful and enjoyable AoE rotation.

 

Picking the right spec for the fight is just another step on that road. A player who can't master his class to the point where he doesn't want to play in certain spec - doesn't belong in progress raiding.

 

 

Spoken like a true elitist.  Again, there is not a single spec in the game that is worthless right now. No raid has ever wiped because one person did 5% less damage due to their spec.  If you want to go ahead and do what you can to churn out more numbers, so be it, but stop polluting this forum with the same tired, old elitist rhetoric about how if you're not playing 100% optimally, you're not worth bringing.  

 

Why are you so polar? There's no need to jump between the extremities.

 

 

That's exact what YOU'RE doing when you say stuff like:

 

The only time where it would be OK to play a spec with a lower potential

It's always okay.  Play what interests you.  Everything is viable right now.  Everything.  Telling somebody they can't raid with you because they are spec XXXXX is pointless.  If you are wiping, you need to learn the mechanics, not critique people's spec choice.

[Niix 169]

Iridar you are more than welcome to have that attitude. Please leave it off your forum responses. Not everybody shares the same attitude and classifying players based on it is not something I am ok with supporting in this forum. Your post has been deleted.

 

Keep it constructive boys and girls.

[Iridar 80]

Iridar you are more than welcome to have that attitude. Please leave it off your forum responses. Not everybody shares the same attitude and classifying players based on it is not something I am ok with supporting in this forum. Your post has been deleted.

 

Keep it constructive boys and girls.

This whole thing is bizarre. OP said: "look, I can raid as BM!", I reply with "yeah, you can, though right now you would probably do more damage as MM, and doing more damage is generally more useful than doing less damage", and I get the heat? Whatever. 

Edited November 23, 2014 by Iridar

[Niix 169]

Do what you like if you like doing it, but don't pretend it doesn't come at a cost. In case of BM the cost is that more often than not MM would do more damage, provided equal skill level, so you will burden the rest of the raid by playing what you like. 

 

The only time where it would be OK to play a spec with a lower potential is when you play other specs so bad that you're better off with just playing with what you know, but then you have to ask yourself if raiding is really for you.

 

You got the heat for responses like this. Just because you don't have that mindset doesn't mean you can't raid. I'm one of the best hunters that plays this game, and even I don't have this mindset. So should I not be raiding?

[Iridar 80]

Just because you don't have that mindset doesn't mean you can't raid. I'm one of the best hunters that plays this game, and even I don't have this mindset. So should I not be raiding?

You said it yourself - you love SV, but you play MM because it performs better. You strive to perform best in all situations, which makes you a progress raider. 

 

I'm sorry if I upset you guys, you just have to understand me a bit better - everything that I say comes from the person who tries to be at 100%, always, and I assumed everyone here was the same. I was wrong, obviously. 

[Atrais 38]

You said it yourself - you love SV, but you play MM because it performs better. You strive to perform best in all situations, which makes you a progress raider. 

 

I'm sorry if I upset you guys, you just have to understand me a bit better - everything that I say comes from the person who tries to be at 100%, always, and I assumed everyone here was the same. I was wrong, obviously. 

 

So then why did you pick hunter? Did you pick it bc it was the 100% best DPS class? Since it isn't, at least from Sims, I am going to assume no.  At some point, everybody makes decisions that lessen their DPS in the interest of enjoying the game, otherwise we would all have been playing Destro Locks in MoP.  Picking one spec over the other is no different, provided one spec isn't useless and undertuned, which very few are right now

[Niix 169]

You said it yourself - you love SV, but you play MM because it performs better. You strive to perform best in all situations, which makes you a progress raider. 

 

I'm sorry if I upset you guys, you just have to understand me a bit better - everything that I say comes from the person who tries to be at 100%, always, and I assumed everyone here was the same. I was wrong, obviously. 

 

You offended no one. You're welcome to your opinon. However, don't be a douche and put others down and tell them they shouldn't be raiding if they don't have the same opinon.

 

The entirety of late game Siege of Orgrimmar I played Survival when Beast Mastery was ahead, and I didn't give a shit about the fact that Beast Mastery was better. Right now I'm playing Marks because I hate the current Survival style. If Survival was fun to play, that's what I would play. My main goal with this game is to have fun. I enjoy high numbers yes, but I wouldn't be playing Marks if I didn't find it more fun than Survival.

 

The point that I'm trying to make is that this forum is home to all varieties of players. Not everybody here can be generalized and put into the "100% club" as some would call it. There are some people that come to this forum that are just not at that level. I know you say that you like to put 100% in but there are in reality very few players that ACTUALLY do that.

 

There are two types of players:

1. Those who aspire to put 100% into their class
2. Those who actually put 100% into their class.

The reason that this is a thing is because those who try, love to tell you how hard they try to min max themselves. Those who do, simply do. Their logs speak for them, their ranks speak for them, their gear speaks for them.

 

This thread has been entirely derailed and frankly has stopped being constructive long ago.

 

Locked.