Looking for Raid

[Stoove 347]

I'm interested to find out something.

I've been thinking lately about LFR and how much I personally dislike it, so I was wondering what other people think about LFR.

Let's forget the gear for a moment: would you actually want to go there if it did not reward such good loot?

For me, it's a no.

[Peelyon 416]

Personally I understand why it is there (for casuals) who want to fight and kill the bosses within the game.

The argument that you should need to put time and effort to "complete" the game is a valid one but obviously Blizzard wants to include all now.

When I started raiding at the end of TBC I never felt it was my "right" to go and fight Illidan etc, I barely had any chance of fighting in Karazan. If anything it made me want to learn more, play more, get better and improve.

But sadly LFR looks like it is here to stay.

The only real problem that I have with LFR is the fact that provides gear that is an upgrade for anyone trying to complete the current content. We had a great week last week trying Stone Guard and Feng, yet weve had 2 raids before LFR opens up.

Its easy to say well stay out of LFR but when we are competing against other guilds on our realm etc then its almost a necessity for players to enter LFR for extra upgrades on loot. This will ultimately mean players who have a challenges with normal modes eventually outgearing the encounters etc before they normally would through progression.

If LFR is just for casuals then surely there is enough to do with the release of an expansion to keep them busy for the meantime? Why not let us compete with Normal modes for a few months and release LFR a month before the next patch?

Makes no real sense to me. Rather than raiding properly last night we decided to join LFR with as many guildies as possible to try and gear up, and it was such a joke of a fight.

Its a shame really, but its not easy to tell players they cant go in there and upgrade their loot, just to play the game "properly".

I've enjoyed the gearing process to raid entry so far, (even if there are too many dailies) but sadly I think LFR will change the way that players of my skillset will compete in WoW.

Casuals - Get to see content - Positive (but why so soon)

Normal raiders - End up outgearing the content sooner with boosted LFR gear - Negative

Heroic raiders - Would clear the content on normal regardless - Arguably doesnt affect top realm top region raiders at all (apart from possibly giving marginal upgrades for early heroic attempts)

Sorry for the rant, I have argued these point on the EU forums and got shouted down with comments like "You dont have to join" etc etc.

[Zagam 1,982]

Here are some complaints about this tier's LFR...

Sigils of Power (Legendary Quest item) seem to drop MUCH more often in LFR than in our normal clears. We have gone 3/6 first week and 4/6 this week and have seen zero sigils, yet when my raiders went into LFR separately, they came out with at least 1 and as much as 3. This is Blizzard's secret way of forcing geared people to go into LFR to assist with lesser geared people. While it is smart of them, I'm onto their trickery and despise it greatly.

Fight mechanics are not just dumbed down...they are completely removed. It's utterly disgusting that LFR provides a raid for those who can't really raid that is just a glorified Mists 5 man heroic dungeon.

Stone Guard - stack dogs and heal through the Overloads. AKA trash pull

Feng - stack up and heal through Epicenter. AKA trash pull

Gara'jal - don't want to use a totem? Don't bother. AKA trash pull

It requires absolutely no coordination, effort, or skill. It's just Blizzard handing gear out to people randomly for enduring a 30 minute dungeon with 25 people. Can't wait to see how bad they butcher the last 3...

[Sneakyferret 12]

The difficulty is quite steep from lfr to 10man/25man normal.

LFR was so easy that we completed it in one shot as soon as lfr went available. The issue this brings is a bunch of inflated ego's especially those who were doing near top dps because they decided not to move at all during the entire conflict. Mainly those that do normals will definitely easily outgear those that run lfr quickly, especially now with how lfr gear distributing is currently. All it requires is progression.

Pretty much, run lfr during your own free time for gear that will help make life easier during your own guilds run of normals/heroics.

Here are some complaints about this tier's LFR...

Sigils of Power (Legendary Quest item) seem to drop MUCH more often in LFR than in our normal clears. We have gone 3/6 first week and 4/6 this week and have seen zero sigils, yet when my raiders went into LFR separately, they came out with at least 1 and as much as 3. This is Blizzard's secret way of forcing geared people to go into LFR to assist with lesser geared people. While it is smart of them, I'm onto their trickery and despise it greatly.

Fight mechanics are not just dumbed down...they are completely removed. It's utterly disgusting that LFR provides a raid for those who can't really raid that is just a glorified Mists 5 man heroic dungeon.

Stone Guard - stack dogs and heal through the Overloads. AKA trash pull

Feng - stack up and heal through Epicenter. AKA trash pull

Gara'jal - don't want to use a totem? Don't bother. AKA trash pull

It requires absolutely no coordination, effort, or skill. It's just Blizzard handing gear out to people randomly for enduring a 30 minute dungeon with 25 people. Can't wait to see how bad they butcher the last 3...

Sigils:

We have to see what they will do for the second part of the legendary in the next patch, Gems i do not mind so much if anyone; even the lfr groups can get them, but they should definitely make it so the real raiders can only get the actual legendaries.

mechanics:

That's lfr for ya >.>

(Just wait for all those lfr runners to start saying just how easy the normal raid is because of their clears of the dumbed down version.)

Edited October 11, 2012 by Sneakyferret

[Stoove 347]

So am I right in surmising that, given the chance, you would avoid LFR and do the difficulty of raiding that fits your skill level better instead?

[Peelyon 416]

Thats my ultimate problem Stoove, its like they understand that a full casual group of 25 actually wouldnt kill a LFR boss. In our run we actually had dps pushing 15k - I can do 25k plus by spamming Smite in holy spec. Therefore they "force" normal and heroic raiders into the LFR to literally boost casuals through it.

Its pretty sad really.

[pandoramic 0]

i honostly do not have a problem with lfr. it gives the not so hardcore raiders a chance at doing something the gear isnt as good as normal raid. This way us more hardcore raiders who want challenges in raiding can still have it and not get it nerfed over n over because others cant clear the content.

it doesnt take talented and geared raiders to go into lfr to help them clear content. its already easy enough as is. ive also found that ive have gotten more bdages form normal raiding than in lfr or the same. its all about chance on kill kinda thing

Edited October 11, 2012 by pandoramic

[Stoove 347]

i honostly do not have a problem with lfr. it gives the not so hardcore raiders a chance at doing something the gear isnt as good as normal raid. This way us more hardcore raiders who want challenges in raiding can still have it and not get it nerfed over n over because others cant clear the content.

And would you go into LFR if it didn't drop loot upgrades to make raiding harder modes less punishing? =]

[Edgar 0]

Any sensible raider will (& should) use everything available to make progress easier, I for one would not want someone on the team that didn't. Therefore until you outgear the drops it becomes another grind for raiders.

For casuals it provides them with some meh gear and having seen the content, I play the game for the challenge which is normal and the odd HC for me, having others see it in LFR doesn't effect this therefore it doesn't worry me.

If there was no loot I wouldn't go in, the end of Cata group in there couldn't walk in a straight line so why would I? Therefore Blizzard have to give some reward to make it work, but really it doesn't have a real effect on raiders once they get started as the loot is outdated quick enough and I'm not into stressing about things that don't matter to me.

OT and in short no me either

[Zagam 1,982]

To comment on some things...

No, I would NOT go in to the first 3 bosses of LFR. I've acquired all of the 489 gear available to me from the first 3 and no matter what drops, I have no need for it. I've gotten lucky on my use of tokens, but IMO, normal modes aren't difficult for stable groups. If you're pugging people, you won't likely see more than 1 or 2 kills per week so loot may be limited to you there. However, the first 4 bosses can be done with a 460 ilvl average group with relative ease and an understanding of the mechanics.

What irks me is that I HAVE to run LFR to stay ahead of the curve, or even just with the curve, to acquire my Sigils. That is absolutely bogus that if I skip LFR, people who run LFR acquire their legendary quest progress items faster than someone who would rather spend his time progressing on finishing the dungeon and starting heroics.

Oh, and let me not forget the fun that will become LFR soon. Remember those trolls on Spine who would kill extra Corruptions and cause wipes? Or how about those guys who were too lazy to switch to oozes on Yor'sahj? First boss in LFR doesn't have anything like that, but Feng sure does. Anyone who gets that Arcane Resonance debuff can, and probably will, run into the group stacked up and wipe them. It has already happened to me week 1...had some guy INTENTIONALLY wipe the group with that debuff because he said LFR was too easy and he was there to make it difficult. The trolls...they are coming.

LFR does NOT give non-raiders a way to raid. As I said, the mechanics of the LFR tuned bosses when compared to the normal bosses is three times the jump as from normal to heroic. Examples:

Stone Guard - normal - things to watch out for:

1) Jasper Chains

2) Cobalt Mines

3) Amaethyst Pools

4) Overloads

Stone Guard - LFR - things to watch out for:

1) your dog/cat/baby messing with you by being in your lap

2) microwave going off

3) disconnects

4) guild chat

Feng - normal - things to watch out for:

1) Epicenter

2) Lightning Fist

3) Fire

4) Draw Flame

5) Arcane Resonance

6) Arcane Velocity

Feng - LFR - things to watch out for:

1) Arcane Resonance: negated by having ranged spread out

2) Arcane Velocity (not really due to laughable damage)

Gara'jal - normal - things to watch out for:

1) Totem Pole

2) Voodoo debuff

3) Add control

4) Debuff timer so you don't die

5) Buff timer for DPS requirement to kill boss

6) Enraged Voodoo debuff

Gara'jal - LFR - things to watch out for:

1) Voodoo (not really, negligible damage)

What they SHOULD have done with LFR is still require moving from things that could kill you. There's only one of those things in all of the first 3 bosses. As long as 2 of your healers aren't licking windows during the encounters, nothing else can really kill you. If I was so busy in life or couldn't meet a consistent schedule to raid with a normal group and had LFR to look forward to to quench my raiding desire, I believe this version of LFR would be a complete embarrassment and let down.

[Stoove 347]

As long as 2 of your healers aren't licking windows during the encounters, nothing else can really kill you.

This is one of the reasons I particularly, personally, dislike LFR. Anyone can do anything they like, and the healers will carry it all.

[Stoove 347]

Incidentally, this topic got a mention on a related post on my blog (linked in my sig). =]

[Peelyon 416]

Our tank went for a bio on Feng LFR and came back to his PC refreshed and still auto attacking the boss btw

[Vladamyr 169]

I like that more people get to see raid content but I really hate how LFR is currently implemented, it's still a gear gate and I would never go in if it wasn't. It's my opinion that LFR should have been setup for the previous tier's raid content at the 25N difficulty. That would allow non-raiders to still see content (just 1 tier late) and still gear for it through heroics (for instance 4.3 heroics would be plenty of ilvl for firelands). Maybe even apply the 25% nerf to LFR to make it easier. This would also get rid of the development time for a strictly LFR version (maybe getting back to some intelligent raid design).

Another reason (though minor) that I would like to see LFR pushed back 1 tier, is that beating the current raiding tier 2 weeks after an xpac drops somewhat diminishes my desire to push through on raiding (I did say minor)

All in all, I hate being forced to gear early for progression by using LFR. I don't want to raid or even dungeon run with a bunch of kids and anything to get away from that is great. (I miss the days of no LFD also, so my opinion may be skewed)

[Stoove 347]

I think one good point you raise there Vladamyr is that having LFR as a gearing gate somewhat reduces the significance of all the other gearing processes you've already gone through. In my opinion, a lot of the content that ISN'T LFR is damn good - and the effort you have to go through to get geared ready for Normals is wasted as soon as you step inside LFR to get the upgrades there. 5man content and scenarios haven't been exhausted yet, but already LFR has made them almost redundant as a gearing tool. I find that somewhat upsetting.

[Vlad 411]

I haven't run LFR yet in Mists of Pandaria, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

I understand all the reasons why LFR exists, and why it is the way it is. I understand the reasons that Blizzard created it for, and barring minor fixes, I think it is the best it should be for their purposes. As independent, objective party, I think Blizzard's move is great.

However, as a raider, as a person who is able and willing to dedicate a lot of time, thought, and effort to obtaining raid gear, improving my performance, and facing (and defeating) challenges, LFR annoys me.

As was pointed out, you cannot simply "stay out of it" or ignore it. Not if you want to be competitive. Not if you want to maximise your gear, fight for a raid spot, or fight for a realm ranking for your guild. And Blizzard knows this all too well. They must know it, because they've used this argument in the past to (rightly) justify some of their actions. It's the reason why caps exist on anything, so that players won't feel forced to farm/grind for endless amounts of time and cause harm to themselves in the process. So they know that this constraint to "do everything you can" exists.

But what are the alternatives? To answer the OP, I wouldn't do LFR if it wasn't for the gear. But then, I have to admit to myself that I probably wouldn't do most things in this game if it wasn't for the rewards. We (raiders) tell ourselves that it's for the challenge, overcoming obstacles, working together, etc., but for a lot of us, I suspect it's the rewards, be they gear, achievements, titles, mounts, the respect of other players on the realm, etc.

So, if there were no rewards, I wouldn't run LFR. I also wouldn't run dungeons except once to see the content. I wouldn't run raids, either, most likely. I might do once or twice if they were as easy to get through as dungeons are, but I wouldn't clock in 200 wipes on Nefarian or Ragnaros (heroic) just to know that I've done it.

Anyway, you can just view LFR as something that "has to be done" a few times at the start of a raid tier. A few lockouts in, you should already either have all you need, or not need it any longer.

[Vladamyr 169]

Yeah, that's a great point Vlad. I have a question for some general feedback. What if JP, Heroic Dungeons and LFR were all the same ilvl so that you could gear truly how you wanted and still see content? I know they won't do this but was wondering your all's thoughts? Also is there now a purpose for JP? I ran 6 heroics and am past being able to use JP's now :(

[Zagam 1,982]

Well the rumor mill has picked up...Blizzard is thinking about having a separate lockout of LFR from normals....ooooh the rage that would happen. Now you'd have to pick your poison. Getting saved to one would lock you out of the other.

Vlad, run LFR now. It's just a glorified heroic dungeon. It is the absolute, most giving version of Blizzard handing out loot. It's almost like World of Warcraft Welfare...

Vladamyr, Justice Points are used for buying honor so you don't have to grind BGs with no gear =) I grind dungeons to cap Valor with guildies (guild dungeons = 1750g) then use the JP to buy honor. Works out great. Not having JP gear at 463 ilvl shows Blizzard's design incompetency just like the dailies of one faction being a gate to two more.

[Lockdupagain 9]

I know people do not like LFR but maybe it just has not been put into perspective the right way, any perhaps I can help. I personally have mixed feelings about it, but mostly I support it (yes, I know here come the trolls). I am married, have 2 kids, I work, and I am a full time student. two of my classes start at 7pm and end at 10pm tuesday and thursday... need I say more. I have to prioritize my dailies due to the lack of time and I can only pug my normals, and its almost impossible for me to get any Heroic content down before a nerf (hasn't happened since LK). Occasionally I can do a guild run, but due to my ever changing scheduale I do not always get to see content, let alone get geared to do it. LFR offers people like me and opportunity to get essentially free gear for a minimal time investment. I love this game, and in about a year I'll be able to do more once my scheduale calms down, but until then I appreciate the fact that I can grab some "free" gear and have an easier time gearing up. There are negatives, trolls and baddies are annoying, but overall I think it does what is intended, and thats help people like me enjoy the game more.

[Zagam 1,982]

I wasn't bashing LFR as a means to get gear...I'm all for other people getting gear if their schedules are too tight.

What I'm bashing is Blizzard for giving you this raid...if it can be called that. It's an atrocity. It's flat out embarassing. If you enjoy it, I'm glad, but I don't see how any of the fights constitute a raid boss other than the gear it drops. The Welfare comment wasn't about people collecting it...it was about how it's handed out. After you do LFR, let me know how much fun you had standing in one place doing your single target rotation.

[Peelyon 416]

Lockdupagain, I think thats why LFR should still exist. For players that maybe have been with the game for so long, that they still get rewarded with being able to see the content.

Just a quick question to you - would you mind if LFR was only opened later on (like the one tier later idea)? Or if there was no loot rewards from it? Just curious to see the reason why you would perhaps want to complete it other than to experience the content.

On a off topic note of JP - I came into MoP with 4000, bought 450 PvP crafted gear so didnt buy any JP gear when it was 450 and was geared 463+ by the time the JP gear was moved to 458 ilvl. (Apart from shoulders which I dont believe there was JP for). I still currently have JP to spend but more than likely I will just save it for next tier, dont even see much point in trading it for honour as Im not really doing any PvP right now anyway.

Although Im probably repeating myself a lot - I just hate the "carrot on a stick" approach for "proper" raiders - meaning that we literally boost players that cant even face the right way through some content. Bleugh

[Stoove 347]

On the JP aspect, I think one nice thing to do with it would be allowing you to trade in JP for Spirits of Harmony.

As I said in my blog and hopefully implied here, I have absolutely no problem about players with lower time commitment being rewarded beyond 5-mans. I think the idea is great. Personally, the implementation sours the experience though.

[Beeba 4]

One good thing about the lfr for me is using it for alts that farm mats. It is easier to deal with the occasional mob if they have slightly better gear than the normal greens and one or two blues and the DS raid finder provided that for me as only like four of my toons saw real raids with any consistency. I will do the same thing around this time too. If you don't have a use for the raid finder you do not have to use it. To literally cry about its existence is shameful. I believe my complaint about the tank that needed on a dps trinket from the Brewfest instance and won it over me has more value than the lfr existence issue. Like Vlad stated above, "I have to admit to myself that I probably wouldn't do most things in this game if it wasn't for the rewards."

[Stoove 347]

Well I'm not sure about the subject about "I have to admit to myself that I probably wouldn't do most things in this game if it wasn't for the rewards." Here I'm going to use a piece of theory put forward by Ben Croshaw ("Yahtzee") about the reason games are fun to play;

A good game has to have three things to be interesting; Context, Challenge, and Gratification. Without sufficient design for each of these, the game feels meaningless.

This is significant because it lets us look at why LFR is so depressing whereas normal raids are not. To put it into WoW language:

Things to do in WoW must have the right balance of three things to be interesting; context, difficulty and loot.

We know that LFR is not difficult, so without a complete redesign (as put forward already), the context and loot have to be put in around that. Where LFR fails isn't in difficulty, it's in the balance of the other two to the difficulty.

LFR fails on context for two reasons; firstly, because although you're killing bosses, it doesn't make much sense that these badass dudes are so easy and not using everything they have to stay alive (that's a minor thing). Secondly, the real place from which raiders derive context is from the community which builds up around it. LFR has no community, there is no interaction between players. That means that one major benefit of raiding - doing something you like with people who are roughly your peers - falls flat on its face.

That leaves everything up to the last item; loot. For LFR to work in any way, the loot has to be in the same context as the other two items. It must be themed right and in the right level for it to make sense as a raid drop, but it also must be consummate to the difficulty of the encounters! Since the context doesn't make sense anyway, the rewards are probably already too high to make sense. Once we take into account the difficulty of the encounters, we see that the rewards from LFR are the only reason a significant chunk of players will find it interesting (although not all). This results in the process feeling hollow and uninteresting for a large part of the playerbase.

Admittedly loot is one of the driving factors, but I don't think for a second that if it were designed appropriately and with lesser rewards it would be uninteresting. Other activities in WoW have what LFR does not, and that is rooted in the context/challenge/gratification argument.

[Beeba 4]

I doubt Blizzard develops content based on the fundamentals of Yahtzee game play but it is a valid point. What Blizzard needs is for people to continue to subscribe. Therefore, adding things like lfr as it is, currently, allows for two things. People that are not-so-hardcore to enjoy some content without the difficulty and it allows for 25 strangers to succeed in a raid of some sort with little knowledge of the mechanics, slightly above average gear and a chaotic style of teamwork. The raid finder would likely fail if the level of difficulty was raised to any meaningful level. Anyone who did the DS raid finder knows well that some are not likely to hit the button on Ultraxion and a wipe may happen, for example.

You see, unlike a board game, such as Yahtzee, WoW has to keep people's interest in some way to keep them playing. That is the business end of the game. It is why there are achievements and a useless point value that adds up. Things like the raid finder, achieves, and so forth are what help keep subscribers, just as much as any other content.

You think Blizzard made this stuff up by themselves? They have economists helping to keep the in-game money in balance, psychologists to tell them different ways to feed people little accomplishments to keep their interest and a slew of other professional types for other areas of the game.

So overall, some will collect pets or mounts, some may look to get exalted with all factions for all the patterns. Some may be farmers and craft items to pile up gold. Others may use the chat for trolling and enjoy the attention. Either way the point is that the raid finder may or may not be your cup of tea but something keeps us playing and it is all carefully designed to ensure that continues.