Looking for Raid

[Gwaine 2]

Haha that's quite a precise cut you took of my post there Stoove :P

As for me actually caving and doing LFR, you know I can't say no to Banthon lol

Well they can't have for normal and that's what I was talking about as that's all I'm aiming to do at the mo, a a start of course.

[Kalkii 2]

Would I run LFR if it wasn't for the loot rewards? NO.

Let's Be Positive

LFR ain't all bad. Here's why I like it:

• My guild runs it weekly in order to gear for Normals, and it has provided an alternative means to crafted items (often times prohibitively expensive) to snag 476 ilvl gear. In that sense it's very useful as a stepping stone in ramping up a raid team from previous tier gear to a current tier boss killing machine.
• It allows casual players, smaller guilds, and oft-benched raiders a chance to see the content. Particular for casuals and small guilds, I personally feel this is very important. There is no reason to lock these people out of that segment of the game. Now, if they were getting gear on par with Normals, let the nerd rage begin, however the in-between ilvl allows sufficient reward for slogging through Raid-Lite^tm while also making it clear that it wasn't in a normal raiding environment.
• If LFR functioned in a non-zergable manner, it would be a way to see the fights and mechanics, and get some practice in before Normal pulls

OMFG Make It Stop

LFR isn't all good. Here's why I would rather stab myself with a fork:

• Some people are just inherently jerks. I've had: pallys BoP tanks and giggle as the boss one shots unsuspecting dps; dps getting impatient, pulling the boss intentionally, and locking out half the raid; person with arcane resonance purposely stand in the middle of the stacked up raid on Feng; likely more that I've repressed...
• Heavy reliance on tanks and healers. I was a tank last tier. My first time in LFR I was screamed at and called some very unflattering things because I screwed up the mechanic on Ultraxion ONCE. Now this tier as a healer, the pressure is on to rescue everyone since a) the mechanics are totally ignored B) people are impatient and overpull, expecting healers to fix it and c) there still seems to be the misconception that standing in glowing, flaming, odd-coloured, sparking, or other things on the floor is a buff. Or that healers will simply heal through it. It makes for a very crappy experience for tanks and heals IMO, and dps simply wail away completely disregarding any and all mechanics. I have dps toons as well and the "difficulty" level is vastly lower if you hack or pewpew.
• Skilled players having to carry lazy players. We've all at some point ended up in the Top 5 dps of an LFR and scratched our heads because our gear was terrible, or its our off spec, or we didn't make good use of CDs, etc. There is a huge difference (but probably immeasurable) between casual players who may not pull the biggest numbers but are trying their best, and geared, lazy raiders who just want to be carried to their loot rolls. I have no problem with the former and a huge problem with the latter. You kind of have to hope that enough people in the 25M give a crap and actually try.

I honestly do think that the positives outweigh the negatives, but I think there is at least one easy way to make the whole thing less painful for everyone. I would love to see a 10M LFR version, to use as raid training without having to deal with the issues above. Have it drop less loot than 25M, obviously, and maybe handicap it by not having it give out Sigils to make it less attractive, or have it share a lockout with Normal, but it would allow raid teams to see the MECHANICS, not just the pretty rooms the fights take place in. Keep the difficulty quite low, so that raid finder teams have a chance. Have both the 25 and the 10, make the 10 less attractive, and I don't think you would be siphoning off many people who currently run it, but you would relieve some of the frustration that people are feeling. Thoughts on this?

[Vlad 411]

Would I run LFR if it wasn't for the loot rewards? NO.

Let's Be Positive

LFR ain't all bad. Here's why I like it:

• My guild runs it weekly in order to gear for Normals, and it has provided an alternative means to crafted items (often times prohibitively expensive) to snag 476 ilvl gear. In that sense it's very useful as a stepping stone in ramping up a raid team from previous tier gear to a current tier boss killing machine.
• It allows casual players, smaller guilds, and oft-benched raiders a chance to see the content. Particular for casuals and small guilds, I personally feel this is very important. There is no reason to lock these people out of that segment of the game. Now, if they were getting gear on par with Normals, let the nerd rage begin, however the in-between ilvl allows sufficient reward for slogging through Raid-Lite^tm while also making it clear that it wasn't in a normal raiding environment.
• If LFR functioned in a non-zergable manner, it would be a way to see the fights and mechanics, and get some practice in before Normal pulls

OMFG Make It Stop

LFR isn't all good. Here's why I would rather stab myself with a fork:

• Some people are just inherently jerks. I've had: pallys BoP tanks and giggle as the boss one shots unsuspecting dps; dps getting impatient, pulling the boss intentionally, and locking out half the raid; person with arcane resonance purposely stand in the middle of the stacked up raid on Feng; likely more that I've repressed...
• Heavy reliance on tanks and healers. I was a tank last tier. My first time in LFR I was screamed at and called some very unflattering things because I screwed up the mechanic on Ultraxion ONCE. Now this tier as a healer, the pressure is on to rescue everyone since a) the mechanics are totally ignored people are impatient and overpull, expecting healers to fix it and c) there still seems to be the misconception that standing in glowing, flaming, odd-coloured, sparking, or other things on the floor is a buff. Or that healers will simply heal through it. It makes for a very crappy experience for tanks and heals IMO, and dps simply wail away completely disregarding any and all mechanics. I have dps toons as well and the "difficulty" level is vastly lower if you hack or pewpew.
• Skilled players having to carry lazy players. We've all at some point ended up in the Top 5 dps of an LFR and scratched our heads because our gear was terrible, or its our off spec, or we didn't make good use of CDs, etc. There is a huge difference (but probably immeasurable) between casual players who may not pull the biggest numbers but are trying their best, and geared, lazy raiders who just want to be carried to their loot rolls. I have no problem with the former and a huge problem with the latter. You kind of have to hope that enough people in the 25M give a crap and actually try.

I honestly do think that the positives outweigh the negatives, but I think there is at least one easy way to make the whole thing less painful for everyone. I would love to see a 10M LFR version, to use as raid training without having to deal with the issues above. Have it drop less loot than 25M, obviously, and maybe handicap it by not having it give out Sigils to make it less attractive, or have it share a lockout with Normal, but it would allow raid teams to see the MECHANICS, not just the pretty rooms the fights take place in. Keep the difficulty quite low, so that raid finder teams have a chance. Have both the 25 and the 10, make the 10 less attractive, and I don't think you would be siphoning off many people who currently run it, but you would relieve some of the frustration that people are feeling. Thoughts on this?

I agree with everything you said.

[Stoove 347]

Similarly, I agree with all the points you made, individually anyway. I just disagree with the value judgement; for me, the cons massively outweigh the pros ='[

[Peelyon 416]

I think a 10 man LFR option would be good, but surely that would put even more pressure on tanks and healers? Or if you had a poor tank or healer in group it would make the situation even harder maybe?

I love the idea of "raid training" but would prefer to see it outside of raid encounters. Dailies such as carrying the flame to the brazier at the Temple of the White Tiger encourages self awareness and movement. Even the "Ready for Raiding III" achievement quests for Golden Lotus provide positive movements etc. If they somehow incorporated a number of tasks like the above, and perhaps at the same time required you to maintain a certain amount of dps or healing or tanking ability (hitting targets, healing targets during the test) and this then on completion would allow you to queue for LFR.

I think players (even casual ones) should be able to play to a certain standard to see the "content". Make the requirements slightly more on skill rather than an item level (or both) and tune the bosses slightly harder.

OR - keep everything the same and remove the loot ;)

[Stoove 347]

Actually some of the aspects that you describe, Peelyon, are in an upcoming feature (sometime this year) called "Proving Grounds" which are more or less single-man instances where you have to do a challenge which is appropriate to your spec without dying :)

[Peelyon 416]

Actually some of the aspects that you describe, Peelyon, are in an upcoming feature (sometime this year) called "Proving Grounds" which are more or less single-man instances where you have to do a challenge which is appropriate to your spec without dying

Really, cool. Hopefully things like that will keep people entertained while playing solo and also be used as a nice way of learning your character!

[Stoove 347]

Really, cool. Hopefully things like that will keep people entertained while playing solo and also be used as a nice way of learning your character!

The intention is that it will not only serve as a training ground for newbies, but also a kind of single-player "challenge mode", where the goal is to survive for as long as possible!

[Kalkii 2]

I think a 10 man LFR option would be good, but surely that would put even more pressure on tanks and healers? Or if you had a poor tank or healer in group it would make the situation even harder maybe?

I guess I kind of saw the 10M functioning as a guild run option. Pugging a 10M LFR would be a nightmare, but I was thinking that if you were able to assemble a 10M team via guild or friends list, and then queue up for it, that would work. In my situation, I'd want to get my normal team together and run it as LFR for a week or two when the content first comes out. We're not a big guild, we're not a hardcore guild, and we don't play around on PTR, so the extra exposure to the bosses would be a huge help.

[Lockdupagain 9]

Lockdupagain, I think thats why LFR should still exist. For players that maybe have been with the game for so long, that they still get rewarded with being able to see the content.

Just a quick question to you - would you mind if LFR was only opened later on (like the one tier later idea)? Or if there was no loot rewards from it? Just curious to see the reason why you would perhaps want to complete it other than to experience the content.

I think that the way they have it set up right now is fine, TBH I would do it whenever it came out, just to see content. I know I am a minority, but I would do it regardless. I do not think taking away loot is a good idea, just because there would be less incentive to do the LFR. I believe that it comes out with the Herioc patch, and to me that is acceptable. Like i said though, all of this is just my opinion.

[Mutterkorn 8]

I like the LFR, as i am no longer in a raiding guild and don't want and can spend the time needed anymore.

LFR allows me to see the content anyway. I like that.