How do you optimally open up as a Windwalker?

[Funkyfister 0]

I've been wondering because we get so many cooldowns now, and some are conflicting.

Like, we got Xuen, Chi Brew, Serenity, Energizing Brew, Tigereye Brew and Fists of Fury if you want to count that as a CD.

 

Its usually no problem to use things in the middle of the fight, but how do you approach the start, with Bloodlust and prepots running? Do you burn Chi brews to get Tiger stacks quickly first? Do you just unload Xuen and spam Blackout kicks while Serenity is running? Does Fists of Fury fit into the opening?

 

[Dolzzy 14]

Sup Funky,

What I tend to do on opener is make sure you start off with 4 or 5 chi

Pre Pot on 1

Chi Wave while running to the boss

Use Xuen

Rsk

Jab

TP

Use Chi Brew

BK

Use Chi Brew

BK

By now you can have anywhere from 6-11 stacks of TEB.

Pop TEB

Rsk

FoF, then when you reach 10 seconds of your TEB duration use Serenity and spam BK the whole time serenity is up. If you got the timing right you can stingy a Rsk at the end of it. I could be missing something but you can refer to my stream twitch.tv/dolzzy to see it in action.

I'll be editing the post when I get home to make sure I didn't miss anything

[Orthios 271]

Sup Funky,

What I tend to do on opener is make sure you start off with 4 or 5 chi

Biggest problem here is that you can't always start with 4 or 5 chi, and after any wipe you will start with 0 no matter what.

[Dolzzy 14]

Biggest problem here is that you can't always start with 4 or 5 chi, and after any wipe you will start with 0 no matter what.

That's not true. You can use expel harm which gives you two chi on cd before you pull. I usually start using it right when I res or on the run back to the boss. The only reason I mentioned "if you can" is because at times I'm alt tab doing something else and don't get a chance to start on 4 or 5 chi, but for the best optimal opener you need to start with some chi in the bank.

[Inspired 0]

 

Nevermind. I figured it out.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Inspired

[Funkyfister 0]

Alright, I'll try to play around with that.

You said TEB 6-11 stacks->use TEB.

Does that mean that you pop your TEB before capping it at 10?

[Dolzzy 14]

Alright, I'll try to play around with that.

You said TEB 6-11 stacks->use TEB.

Does that mean that you pop your TEB before capping it at 10?

 

Yup, It's ok to use TEB before you reach 10 stacks. Use it when the stars align, meaning when your trinket, tigerstrike has proc'd etc.. don't be afraid to use it between-10 stacks. I suggest you track these pocs using weak auras or "ExtraCD" Addon if you don't already. This is what separates the average ww monks and the good ones. 

[Funkyfister 0]

Well thankfully my current trinkets are on use and flat stats, so thats one thing I need to watch out for off the list, at least for now.

I do track my TP and BKs already as thats extremely useful.

Weakauras generally feel essential for Windwalkers. I use it for stuff like tracking of clones and its just great.

 

Normally I do try to burn my TEB in the best situation AFTER it reaches ten stacks, but if its actually better to prioritize damage opportunities then I will do that.

I still need to get used to that Serenity/Chi Brew opening as there's quite a bit to watch out for. Its way simpler with Chi Explosion+Ascension in cleave fights, but its obvious that Serenity is just superior in single target fights so there's no way past that.

Feels like absolutely perfect openings arent as important on monks though. Damage always felt really even for whole fights as opposed to spiky DPS of others at the start of it.

Will still try to get the most out of it though.

 

Anyways, thanks for the help. I'll try to catch your stream when its up. It says you've been playing Gunz, so thats cool already.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Funkyfister

[Dolzzy 14]

No problem Funky. You can always look at my past broadcast too.  http://www.twitch.tv/dolzzy/profile/past_broadcasts 

[andreios 1]

Looks like a great opener! Curious to know why you RSK before Tiger Palm.

[Brewmonksta 157]

 

Looks like a great opener! Curious to know why you RSK before Tiger Palm.

So you dont cap/waste chi with the jab that follows.

[Dolzzy 14]

So you dont cap/waste chi with the jab that follows.

 Correct.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Dolzzy

[andreios 1]

I think I'm still missing something.  Why would you not go TP>RSK>Jab (if you started out with 4 Chi?)  I came out with the same Chi balance:

 

Start with 4 Chi

PP/CW/Xuen (4)

RSK (2)

Jab (4)

TP (3)

Chi Brew (5)

etc.

 

vs

 

Start with 4

PP/CW/Xuen (4)

TP (3)  [giving you Tiger Power before RSK]

RSK (1)

Jab (3)

Chi Brew (5)

etc.

 

Help me out - what am I missing? 

[Orthios 271]

I think I'm still missing something.  Why would you not go TP>RSK>Jab (if you started out with 4 Chi?)  I came out with the same Chi balance:

 

Start with 4 Chi

PP/CW/Xuen (4)

RSK (2)

Jab (4)

TP (3)

Chi Brew (5)

etc.

 

vs

 

Start with 4

PP/CW/Xuen (4)

TP (3)  [giving you Tiger Power before RSK]

RSK (1)

Jab (3)

Chi Brew (5)

etc.

 

Help me out - what am I missing? 

Tiger Power is a 30% armor ignore (read, you attack as if the target had 70% of the armor they normally have).  Boss level armor reduction is 32% physical damage reduction (Last that I know of this is true), which puts the armor after TP @ 22.4%.  The damage gain from this is ~14%, and effects physical damage only( (1-.224)/(1-.32) -or- .776/.68).

Rising Sun Kick is a direct 10% damage increase (down from 15% as per monday's damage pass).  

Edited December 10, 2014 by Orthios

[andreios 1]

Tiger Power is a 30% armor ignore (read, you attack as if the target had 70% of the armor they normally have).  Boss level armor reduction is 32% physical damage reduction (Last that I know of this is true), which puts the armor after TP @ 22.4%.  The damage gain from this is ~14%, and effects physical damage only( (1-.224)/(1-.32) -or- .776/.68).

Rising Sun Kick is a direct 10% damage increase (down from 15% as per monday's damage pass). 

So basically it's better to get the RSK damage buff up than the armor ignoring buff.  That makes sense, thank you.  (And thanks for the mathematics!  Really helps.)

 

Though in light of the aforementioned nerf to the RSK buff, and the fact that pretty much all of our attacks are physical, would that mean that TP now becomes the priority?  (~14% vs 10%) 

[Brewmonksta 157]

 

TP now becomes the priority?  (~14% vs 10%)

Negative

The debuff and the base damage and the use of 2 chi to then gain 2 chi with the next jab make it still better to use he RSK first.

[Orthios 271]

Negative

The debuff and the base damage and the use of 2 chi to then gain 2 chi with the next jab make it still better to use he RSK first.

Using numbers from simcraft (using 630 gear level) for getting approx. average hits (and rounding slightly), this is what I get for that portion of the opener (regarding RSK, TP, and Jab):

RSK Average: 24k, gives +10% damage

TP Average: 8k, gives +14% damage

Jab Average: 3k

 

RSK > Jab > TP:

24k + 1.1*3k + 1.1*8k = 36.1k Damage 12k dps over these three seconds

 

RSK > TP > Jab:

24k + 1.1*8k + 1.1*1.14*3k = 36.6k Damage, 12.2k dps over these 3 seconds

 

TP > RSK > Jab:

8k + 1.14*24k + 1.1*1.14*3k = 39.1k Damage, 13k dps over these 3 seconds

 

TP > Jab > RSK:

8k + 1.14*3k + 1.14*24k = 38.8k Damage, 12.9k dps over these 3 seconds

 

So, this shows getting the TP buff up does MORE damage (and therefore dps) than using RSK first.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Orthios

[Brewmonksta 157]

How then does delaying RSK effect the its cooldown and lining up the 2nd RSK before your first FoF?

 

The APL on Simcraft assumes 0 chi at the pull. I wonder if this will change things.

[andreios 1]

The APL on Simcraft assumes 0 chi at the pull. I wonder if this will change things.

It would be interesting to see but I shouldn't think so.  If I'm reading it right the numbers Orthios provides (thank you for running that!) are just for the individual abilities, so chi amount shouldn't matter.  The difference comes from the order in which abilities get buffed by their predecessor - using TP before RSK buffs its already much larger damage more than using RSK to buff the weaker TP.

 

How then does delaying RSK effect the its cooldown and lining up the 2nd RSK before your first FoF?

It would delay that, but could you fill in with a Jab?  (By my count I'd think you would need to anyway to fund the RSK and FoF, wouldn't you?)  You could also switch the FoF and second RSK; if I have my theoretical timing right (based on adding a Jab before TEB) RSK should come off CD with 1 sec to go on FoF (not optimal, but at least both buffs outlast the CD) and not change the Serenity timing at all.

 

Edited December 12, 2014 by andreios

[Biev 1]

Yup, It's ok to use TEB before you reach 10 stacks. Use it when the stars align, meaning when your trinket, tigerstrike has proc'd etc.. don't be afraid to use it between-10 stacks. I suggest you track these pocs using weak auras or "ExtraCD" Addon if you don't already. This is what separates the average ww monks and the good ones. 

I've been messing around with WeakAuras for a bit now and can't seem to get it to track Tiger Strikes. Could you send the string for it or let me know what you inputted if possible. 

[Dolzzy 14]

I've been messing around with WeakAuras for a bit now and can't seem to get it to track Tiger Strikes. Could you send the string for it or let me know what you inputted if possible. 

 

I use "ExtraCD" Addon to track Tiger Strikes.

[Lockybalboa 618]

This has a lot more then just Tiger stacks but I'm to tired to pull out just the TS string.

 

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[Biev 1]

I use "ExtraCD" Addon to track Tiger Strikes.

Thank you for the reply 

[Fawkes 0]

Hey Dolzzy,

 

Ive been configuring extracd. Have it setup for my Frostwolf enchant, my seals of doom trinket etc. For some reason I cant get Tiger Strikes to be configured correctly. What do you have the values set to?

[SeanSullivan 0]

Just looking through the thread, is Xuen affected by our debuffs or brew buffs at all, is it like a hunter pet where our trinket and other buffs affect its dps, or should we just pop him when we have the ability too?