The new Demo thread - Underrated for no good reason !

[Jack 0]

Hey everyone,

first, let me start off by thanking everyone here for their hard work, posts and comments. it's really a vault of knowledge and i'm sure it helped many warlocks bring the bang to the raid, DPS wise.

My issue here, and the reason i'm starting this thread is the fact that Demo is no where to be seen anywhere. once someone high up figured out that Affliction is better, everyone rolled with it. every place you go on the web, you see tons of info on affliction, but nothing concrete on Demo, at least in terms of players sharing their thoughts and experience.

Take as an example this forum. the affliction thread has 6 pages by now, and the Demo thread has but 1.

Ive been playing Demo since way back when, and even in MoP i was able to get good results.

after seeing the hype over affliction, i decided to test it out. granted, i need experience with it to perfect the numbers, but ive noticed it's quite on par with Demo. sure, there is probably a difference in favor of affliction (thousands of affliction warlocks, all simming day and night, cant be wrong), but im wondering if the difference is as big as you all say.

I've tried affliction hit capped, and not hit capped, and the results were very good (although for some reason i see a lot of RNG. Elagon normal - one time im second to a hunter, another time im fifth with a mage and a rogue above me). odd.

but with Demo, granted, the DPS is spikier due to slipping in and out of meta, but at least for me, i see better numbers from it.

My question is, is there anyone left playing Demo in raids? anyone i can compare to? look over their numbers?

I'm wondering about a few things:

1. field tests show that mastery has the upper edge above haste for this spec, but im wondering if i shouldnt hit some sort of cap on haste before stacking some mastery. obviously hit is first.

2. what about crit ?

3. when i open, should i pop my imps for faster buildup so i could slip into meta earlier? or do i save them for a longer meta up-time ?

4. demon soul - on CD or only in meta (when full)

5. when full! do i slip into meta and burn down my entire demo pool, or just half, then build it again and burn half ? seems that doing half and half will even out the numbers, and full burns will make it much spikier. thoughts?

these are just some of the questions burning in my mind, that i couldnt find decent answers to. i appreciate any thought or idea, and thank you for taking the time to read this.

also, this is me: http://eu.battle.net...rthvedar/simple

Cheers!

[Vortex 3]

Hello Jack my main spec it's Affliction since you can't compare demo single target with Afflction, and no point to go demo on Elegon or Will of Emperor.

But yeah I <3 demo and the new system it's awesome, I love to dance caster/demon form. I can say I'm mediocre with Affliction but very good playing Demonology, and for me now this spec it's more easy to play then Affliction, reverse of Cataclysm expansion.

I have been ranking in all fights that I have been played Demonology such as Guardians, Gara´jal and Spirit Kings. I have too say that Demonology it's really good on Feng Hc, still working on the kill.

But too answer all questions:

1- Like I said my main spec it's Affliction, but whenever I play Demonology I don't reforge anything, and I'm able to top 3-5( 25 men guild) on most of the fights with Affliction reforges (10% haste, 15% hit rating, full mastery).

2- Crit sims the worst stat, I never reforge anything for crit.

3- I do exactly and you said there, after I run my normal rotation, I pop Wild Imps and Grimoire Service: Felguard at the same time. But yeah I pop Imps to buildup fury more fast.

4- Demon Soul I always align it with Demon Form, I pop DS and I go into demon form ASAP! I believe it's a dps loss if you pop it always on cd, just wait to have around 750-800 fury.

5- When I reach around 750-800 fury I pop DS and I burn everthing until my DS fades, when that happens I switch back to caster form. But if you generate that fury(700-800), you can gain all the DS effect inside demon form.

PS: When they release Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring i'm sure I will be switching between Affliction and Demonology,

Edited October 24, 2012 by Vortex

[Jack 0]

Hello Jack my main spec it's Affliction since you can't compare demo single target with Afflction, and no point to go demo on Elegon or Will of Emperor.

Id'e like to get a clarification on this. why do you say that on single target affliction is superior to Demo?

I personally see more DPS from demo then from affliction on single target. is that just RNG? makes sense also to assume that in the opposite case, on multi target, SB:SS will generate more DPS then tabbing and applying doom and corruption.

Also, for the life of me i can't figure out how you can pull 120k sustained on Elagon. as Affliction i burst at the start and do my 120, but then i drop to 80-90.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Jack

[Boradan 17]

I should really give demo another try, but I am very happy with my lock currently as affliction.

Pulled 128k for the Elegon fight last week, and have since gotten the valor legs (over 463 ones) and a neck from LFR (again upgraded from 463).

Also have the Jade spirit weapon enchant now.

The trick with affliction is to use TellMeWhen or similar to keep track of your buffs more efficiently.

Its worth using a Global to re-cast your dots when you get trinket and weapon enchant proccing at the same time as the duration of the DoT will carry those buffs. With Pandemic, you could get a 38second Agony with weapon, trinket (or 2) and Potion rolling... IMBA DPS.

Im actually the reverse of you in elegon. Cant seem to get a great burst at the start, but my DPS ramps throughout the fight. I must be doing something not quite right on my opener.

Back to the original topic though:

For some reason, Im not overly fond of demo. I think it just reminds me too much of the stance dancing warriors used to have to do. Never liked that :(

[Vortex 3]

If you check simualtion craft it says Affliction it's top dps for warlock on single target or multi-dot. Only fights that Demonology it's able to compete with Affliction it's AOE fights and the ones that requires ALOT of movement.

You mean personally? If so, you're doing something wrong with Affliction since many things had change. For me it's way more easy to play Demonology then Affliction.

I did 128k on last time we killed Elegon on normal and I didn't even ranked :<. So isn't hard to push that (25 men).

If you push that at the begin I presume you're using Doomguard right? If not it's because at the begin all your trinkets, potion, proc's are active.

About those specific encounters:

Elegon: Multi-dot and tbh dunno why Demonology don't perform so well like Elegon here. But like I said if Affliction ranks above Demonology that's why, I guess.

Will of Emperor: Just dotdotdotdotdotdotdotdot!!!! Multi-dot everthing, nothing to say here.

[Jack 0]

I understand and agree with everything youre saying, and still i would like to hear from any lock who has done anything in MSV as Demo.

anyone who might have done the same boss in both specs and has some insight.

Anyone who can verify that the difference is indeed not that big!

also, Awaiting the reply from our esteemed moderator and lock enthusiastic, Zagam ! (any input would be appreciated!)

[Vortex 3]

I can help you only at the first 4 bosses:

Stone Guards- Affliction- Performs much better then Demonology here. Around 20k on normal and hc.

Feng- Demonology it's a clearly winner but only on hc, because add phase will boost your dps. On normal Affliction beats Demonology by far.

Gara´jal- Again Affliction it's monster here, Demonology isn't so bad either. Demonology can compete with any class here. Affliction will top meters!

Spirit Kings- Both are almost at the same level, however Affliction will do more 5-6k then Demonology. I did a great job with Demonology here.

The other 2 fights, another lock will need to help you.

Well I did some trys with Demonology on Elegon on a progress night and it was awful. Bottom of table. Besides Demonology it's really weak on Feng bottom of table aswell, but you jump to bottom to the top on add phase. You'll end at top5 if you play properly the rest of the fight.

[Boradan 17]

I understand and agree with everything youre saying, and still i would like to hear from any lock who has done anything in MSV as Demo.

anyone who might have done the same boss in both specs and has some insight.

Anyone who can verify that the difference is indeed not that big!

also, Awaiting the reply from our esteemed moderator and lock enthusiastic, Zagam ! (any input would be appreciated!)

Wasiest way to find out is to use http://www.worldoflo...han_Vaults/dps/

1. Choose the raid type (10/10HC/25/25HC) you are in yourself.

2. Click on the 'more...' below each Boss

3. On the top bar is a row of icons for every class/spec. Just click through the warlock ones to see the DPS for each Spec on the boss you are interested in, Ignore the top 10 or so. Quite often they are broken/hacked logs where the fight is significantly shorter, and therefore the burst phase value is increased, thus increasing their DPS. A good idea is to actually ignore the top 100 to give a realistic value to aim for - unless your aim is to be top 10 Demo Lock

Herees the results of that for Stone Guard 10 man normal:

Aff lock: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/The_Stone_Guard/10N/Affliction_Warlock/?page=3 Ignoring top 100 we see around 114k dps

Demo Lock: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/The_Stone_Guard/10N/Demonology_Warlock/?page=3 Again, ignoring top 100 we see about 91k

Thats a 20% difference...a BIG mark-up

Edited October 25, 2012 by Boradan

[Jack 0]

I guess i'm just fighting for the lost cause of Demonology warlocks. no idea why i'm so overly attached to it, but i am.

And assuming Affliction will indeed win the day, 2 questions:

1. can someone settle the argument about hit capping? go for it, or not.

1.1 if not, how much hit should i have? give me the stat priorities to get rid of hit.

2. should i cap a certain number for haste, then stack mastery ?

cheers guys, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with me !

[Boradan 17]

I guess i'm just fighting for the lost cause of Demonology warlocks. no idea why i'm so overly attached to it, but i am.

And assuming Affliction will indeed win the day, 2 questions:

1. can someone settle the argument about hit capping? go for it, or not.

1.1 if not, how much hit should i have? give me the stat priorities to get rid of hit.

2. should i cap a certain number for haste, then stack mastery ?

cheers guys, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with me !

Will run simcraft on your lock tonight to see what the results are

[Zagam 1,982]

Demonology is a fun spec to play, but you're putting your raid at a disadvantage if you play anything else. All of these fights are very favorable to classes that are powerful with DoTs and no secondary target to control. Because Affliction plays with Grimoire of Sacrifice, you gain 20% more HP (awesome!), 2% healing every 5 seconds (awesomer!), your pet's ability infused with you (neat!), and 50% more damage with Malefic Grasp, Haunt, Fel Flame, and Drain Soul (Awesome-O 9000!!!). It may feel 'dirty' to sacrifice your pet, but the perks and buffs are just incredible and far outweigh using powerful pets or multiple pets. Having 3 DoTs you can apply to multiple targets gives it an advantage in any fights with 2 or 3 targets. So Stoneguard, Gara'jal, Elegon, and Will right off the bat, no debate; Affliction wins based on damage and utility.

Back off of Affliction for a second and let's look at what made Demonology so valuable back in the day. We were one of two classes to give 10% spell power. I remember playing Demonology against my will because the benefit was greater than my personal DPS. Let's look at the things you bring to the table as Demonology over Affliction which does more DPS, so we're looking for extra utility...nothing. Demonology brings nothing except purple Illidan form. So now we're looking at a class specialization with less utility and less DPS with no extra buffs. It's a no brainer.

Let's look at things you have to worry about by maxing DPS at the moment.

Affliction:

1) 3 DoTs

2) Dark Soul

3) Trinkets/procs

4) Haunt

Demonology:

1) 2 DoTs (one in each form)

2) 2 forms

3) Demonic Fury

4) Imps

5) Main Pet

6) 2nd Pet

7) Trinkets/procs

8) Soulfire procs

9) Dark Soul

That just looks like a headache to me. And all the trouble you go through for no benefit...you actually incur a penalty for playing Demonology.

It's not our fault that the game designers didn't balance the three specializations. They're currently working on all three specs. In 5.1, all Warlocks will be able to move and cast with only a 20% movement debuff...no more casting penalty! This means we will have our full rotation available to us while moving (with Kil'jaeden's talent, of course) which may improve Destruction's DPS since every single part of it's rotation requires standing still. Demonology already has movement potential, but things can always be changed to make them better. Future raid encounters may introduce situations where higher on-demand burst is required opening the door for Destruction. There may be an encounter much like Heroic Maloriak where having a Demonology Warlock simplified the heroic addition with relative ease. Going back to Dragon Soul, there was an argument for all 3 specializations for Warlocks, some for the same fight! Think Warmaster...Affliction gave the ability to DoT up all targets and do massive DPS. Demonology had the ability to stack up and AoE the two ground adds and a drake to speed up ground phases and Destruction could put Bane of Havoc on Gorianna as she flew past to completely negate shadow void zones and her air phase.

Using World of Logs to gauge your DPS is a terrible way to look at things. Every group is unique and playstyles and skills are accounted for by raid leaders. For example, I could have ranked nearly every week on Heroic Zon'ozz in Dragon Soul if I left myself on the boss and his increased damage taken. Instead, I left the melee on the boss and I took charge of killing the adds on the heaviest side. World of Logs rankings usually include people who have had no extra assignments or switching assignments or were allowed to manipulate mechanics in their favor. For example, we let every single person rank on Heroic Madness in different weeks after downing it by letting them stack DPS by soloing the bloods that spawned. By letting them abuse Spellweave, they could beat others who were doing the encounter as intended. If you want to use World of Logs for parses, look at the parse to see what buffs and debuffs were present, whether the person was flasked, given outside buffs such as Power Infusion or Symbiosis, and other outside sources. Remember that rankings in WoL are often, but not always, products of perfect situations and manipulation of encounters.

The summarized version: if you're competitive and want to give your guild the best push, play Affliction. There are no valid arguments around that currently. If you're playing with a casual group that doesn't really want to push progress as fast as others might, play whatever spec makes you happy.

[Boradan 17]

Using World of Logs to gauge your DPS is a terrible way to look at things.

I wasnt suggesting world of logs to gauge his own dps. I was suggesting it to compare the general dps from each spec. Totally different.

[Jack 0]

Hey again!

First of all, let me thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed response! i'm actually starting to get the hang of affliction now, but keeping Demo on the side for 5.1

Thanks again!

I do have one small request Zagam, if you could take a few moments to see if my reforges are correct.

Went with 10% haste, then mastery (hit capped). hope thats the right path to take.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Jack

[Zauxst 1]

Hey Jack.

Your issue is that you haven't checked enough resourseces. Demo is best burst in game at the moment (when you have the cooldowns ofc)

Try to check simulationcraft.org for a good rotation and BiS items and AskMrRobot.com for your reforges, best of luck.

[Jack 0]

Hey Jack.

Your issue is that you haven't checked enough resourseces. Demo is best burst in game at the moment (when you have the cooldowns ofc)

Try to check simulationcraft.org for a good rotation and BiS items and AskMrRobot.com for your reforges, best of luck.

Hey,

Thanks for your comment, however ive since moved to Affliction, as my last post states. and even though im using MR robot, there is no conclusive answer as to the hit cap issue, or the haste needed, which is why i asked.

[fordfiesta 1]

I'm doing great dps as demo, coming in first in groups most of the time (I did get out-dps'd by an aff lock on Will of the Emperor though, barely, but significantly out-dps'd that aff lock on Elegon and slightly on all of the other fights, except 4 Kings, where I crushed his dps by a pretty big margin, he came in 3rd that fight).

I have aff off-spec and because of all the hype I have tried aff extensively, and while it is super awesome for sure, and for many fights I get slightly higher dps, overall they honestly seem about the same, except I am finding my survivability to be MUCH higher as demo.

Like I just don't need heals nearly as often, and even doing menial stuff like dailies or heroics, I don't really ever worry about my health. I've been in total crap dungeon groups (blades of fury guy in scarlet halls, can't avoid the fire tornado, really ....... ) where the entire group has wiped with 80%+ health and I've solo'd the boss. I feel like I get the crap beat out of me in aff, and even doing dailies I've noticed I'm just not comfortable chain pulling like with demo (I can literally pull everything, keep running and continue pulling, 50+ enemies, no problem at all), never worrying about health. I tried chain-pulling in a similar way on sra'vess for shado-pan dailies in aff it didn't work out so well.

So the slight dps boost I might get from playing aff in most cases isn't worth it to me. I'm sure with better gear and significantly higher numbers as aff that will change though, but for sure demo is not a crap spec to play.

And for burst, demo is for sure better than aff. Like for fights like Elegon I can easily take care of my spark and help my lower dps neighbor with his significantly, and even get dots on another one (for what it's worth, aff dots crush demo dots of course). I pvp a lot also, and aff in mop has become pretty bad unfortunately with all of the burst classes (bm hunters crushing super fast) and how quick pvp goes now due to aff's lack of burst. Demo and destro seem like pretty much the only specs to play now for pvp. I get excited when there's an aff lock in the other group, they can be completely ignored, killed last, and you know for certain it's going to be a free win.

I'm not championing demo as a better spec to play at all, it might just be working well for me specifically because of my play style or any number of things (possibly most of the other aff locks on my server just not being very good at the rotation or keeping up dots), but it's definitely a viable spec to play.

[Zagam 1,982]

I'm doing great dps as demo, coming in first in groups most of the time (I did get out-dps'd by an aff lock on Will of the Emperor though, barely, but significantly out-dps'd that aff lock on Elegon and slightly on all of the other fights, except 4 Kings, where I crushed his dps by a pretty big margin, he came in 3rd that fight).

I have aff off-spec and because of all the hype I have tried aff extensively, and while it is super awesome for sure, and for many fights I get slightly higher dps, overall they honestly seem about the same, except I am finding my survivability to be MUCH higher as demo.

Like I just don't need heals nearly as often, and even doing menial stuff like dailies or heroics, I don't really ever worry about my health. I've been in total crap dungeon groups (blades of fury guy in scarlet halls, can't avoid the fire tornado, really ....... ) where the entire group has wiped with 80%+ health and I've solo'd the boss. I feel like I get the crap beat out of me in aff, and even doing dailies I've noticed I'm just not comfortable chain pulling like with demo (I can literally pull everything, keep running and continue pulling, 50+ enemies, no problem at all), never worrying about health. I tried chain-pulling in a similar way on sra'vess for shado-pan dailies in aff it didn't work out so well.

So the slight dps boost I might get from playing aff in most cases isn't worth it to me. I'm sure with better gear and significantly higher numbers as aff that will change though, but for sure demo is not a crap spec to play.

And for burst, demo is for sure better than aff. Like for fights like Elegon I can easily take care of my spark and help my lower dps neighbor with his significantly, and even get dots on another one (for what it's worth, aff dots crush demo dots of course). I pvp a lot also, and aff in mop has become pretty bad unfortunately with all of the burst classes (bm hunters crushing super fast) and how quick pvp goes now due to aff's lack of burst. Demo and destro seem like pretty much the only specs to play now for pvp. I get excited when there's an aff lock in the other group, they can be completely ignored, killed last, and you know for certain it's going to be a free win.

I'm not championing demo as a better spec to play at all, it might just be working well for me specifically because of my play style or any number of things (possibly most of the other aff locks on my server just not being very good at the rotation or keeping up dots), but it's definitely a viable spec to play.

Comparing yourself to any Warlock doesn't give you the ability to claim Demonology is better or even competes with Affliction. Do you have log proof? I can't see too many Demonology Warlocks pushing 150k+ on Elegon with ease like I do on Elegon. And I'm sorry, but if your Affliction lock almost got beat by you on Will of the Emperors, you should point him towards my Affliction guides so he doesn't get embarrassed anymore. No one should beat an Affliction Warlock or even come close on any fight with multi-dotting situations in existence. No one will argue with you that Affliction sucks for PvP at the moment, but there isn't a fight anywhere in this current raid tier where Demonology outshines Affliction except MAYBE the 4th and 5th bosses in Heart of Fear where a significant amount of adds is present. Even still, when you finally break through the add phase and focus the boss, Affliction would trump Demonology by a landslide with the best execute phase rotation in the game.

As for burst, bursting isn't an issue with Affliction anymore. Any Affliction Warlock who doesn't rip apart the meters on Elegon's charge phase isn't following my tips. Having Corruption rolling on every charge + the Seed of Corruption explosion, and SB:SS + Haunt on your own charge leaves everything handled with ease. It's also pretty easy to rotate through your Soul Shards to maintain 250k+ DPS for the opening 25 seconds of Elegon. I haven't seen too many Demo parses pushing those kinds of numbers either. Pet travel time is a significant downfall when trying to rotate though mechanics and new targets. Sure, Demo is more viable than say a Shadow Priest or a Boomkin...but if you really want to excel in PvE, that extra damage you get from Affliction pays off.

[fordfiesta 1]

Comparing a demonology warlock to a shadow priest or boomkin is a huge stretch, not even slightly close to accurate and I'm pretty sure you know it. Even not considering actual gameplay experience and always seeing those classes at the bottom by a big margin, the charts don't have those classes near demonology, and those charts do have demonology close to affliction. That leads me to believe you have a lot of bias invested in this and for some reason really dislike demonology (I used to as well, before mop I hated it).

I believe that you must know how to play an affliction warlock exceptionally well, you've put a lot of time and practice into it plus I'm sure you're just skilled anyway, and probably kick my ass in dps, but even if you look at the simulcraft math, affliction is what, 3-5% better dmg output? That's not so much as to fairly claim demonology is a crap spec to play like you seem to be doing.

After my healers have the fights down more and their mana management is right on I'll be making the switch to affliction for heroic raiding, for that minor boost that might make or break beating enrage timers, but people shouldn't have doubts that demonology can be a very viable dps spec to play for the current raids.

EDIT: did the math and it's not a 3-5% increase, it's less than 1%

Edited November 13, 2012 by fordfiesta