Please help our frost mage

[Gazooten 6]

We have a frost mage in our raid group who has mained a hunter in the past and made the switch to frost mage. She is a very good player and has done very well on her hunter in the past but is frustrated with her mage DPS. I thought I might link some logs here and let you guys go over it with a fine toothed comb and tell me what you guys think (please be nice). Her name is Finarotic

 

 

Here's the first one: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/83GYh1TLRQFbAcCp#fight=9

 

Here's the second: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/NFC2Bdqrc9YhjRXH/#type=damage-done&fight=11

Edited January 5, 2015 by Gazooten

[Skrub 7]

well the first thing that stands out is Incanter's Flow. Mirrors is the way to go, especially when it lines up with Icy Veins. I'm at work so don't have a huge amount of time to post, will edit this as i go

[Gazooten 6]

well the first thing that stands out is Incanter's Flow. Mirrors is the way to go, especially when it lines up with Icy Veins. I'm at work so don't have a huge amount of time to post, will edit this as i go

Thanks for the tip, I'll let her know :)

[jloopy212 0]

A few major issues:

 

Improper Use of PC - Wrong casts, wrong setup, wrong timing, likely wrong positioning

 

Spamming IL without FoF.  

 

FoF munching all over the place.

 

Poor CD management.

 

Poor consumable use/management.

 

Honestly, a lot of just very basic, critical errors.  I'd point them to the IV starter guide for frost mages as they just need to clean up their play from top to bottom.

[TLTeo 29]

From what i can see:

 

1) Poor opener. Do not use water jet while frozen orb is up to avoid munching, use PC/IV together with MI on pull rather than 40 seconds into the fight. This is absolutely MASSIVE. There's a good thread about openers on altered-time: http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=784. On fights when Bloodlust isn't used at the start, it's vital to plan her cooldowns around it (Imperator, Butcher and Tectus generally).

2) BF-FFB managing is good, FoF isnt. She shouldn't spam IL unless moving and out of Ice Floes charges (which is preferable to Blazing Speed in a lot of scenarios), and she shouldn't munch FoF. It feels like her Water Jet is on autocast instead of being casted manually.

3) Thermal Void and Ice Nova are much easier to manage than PC and Frost Bomb, so she might try those while getting the hang of FoF usage etc. If she really wanted to min-max, on single target fights the default choices are PC and IN, while TV and Frost Bomb come out on top on cleave/aoe. ame for MI vs IF, i'm fairly sure that IF is better for cleave since it benefits every spell. All talents are close enough and she won't gimp her dps by going the easier route, there's bigger issue going on for now (her cooldown management being the biggest one).

4) Cooldown usage. Icy Veins/PC/Frozen Orb needs to be casted multiple times per fight, stacking them when they are available. This means saving Orb for PC instead of casting it on cooldown. If possible, save at least one IN charge for these burst moments. This is particularly important because a lot of a frost mage's dps is tied in burst.

4) This is minor, but Alter Time is preferable to Ice Barrier becuase it doesn't consume a GCD.

 

I also recommend reading icy veins and altered time a bit, that alone with better cd usage will help her greatly :)

Edited January 5, 2015 by TLTeo

[Gameorg 1]

With her current gear she should be able to do about 25k Dps on Kargath and Butcher. This just just an estimation but u can doublecheck it with simcraft.

 

From the Spell Distribution of her Butcher fight i can tell you:

 

--- Not ideal Usage of PC. Prismatic Crystal is close to the top of your Damaging Spells in a Static fight like Kargath and Butcher.

--- No Mirror Image used. Mirror Image are another Spell that is at the very Top of Damaging Frost Mage Spells.

 

--- She did not use PrePot, nor did she use another Pot infight. (Take a look at summary --> Fight Analyses)

 

 

From the event View Table:

 

Her opener is far from optimal. She starts with Frozen Orb.

 

My Version:

 

Start with MI+Prepot cast Frostbolt so that it lands with the Pull. During the first Frostbolt activate Waterjet, cast another Frostbolt and build up 2 FOF Procs. Now Cast Frozen Orb or put down the Prismatic Crystal (or vise versa depending on what you prefer or how far away you stand from the boss). The goal is to build up 2 FOF, put PC put 2 Icelances into PC and then get additionall Fingers of Frost Procs from the frozen Orb to put additional Dmg into the PC. Note that PC has to be put into the boss and usually is only the best talent at Kargath and Butcher. For the other fights i recommend thermal Void.

 

My Opener is without Frost Bomb. Ice Nova is easier to handle than frost bomb and has pretty much equal (or better) dps - Depending on Number of Targets.

 

 

 

 

@Others: Where can you read how many FOF Procs where munched or Ice Lances without FOF Proc where casted?

Edited January 5, 2015 by Gameorg

[TLTeo 29]

That opener is mostly correct but you shouldn't cast Frozen Orb with 2 charges of FoF, you won't be able to get rid of one of them before Orb lands leading to munching an IL. Either do not cast water jet at all on pull, or cast one (or two if you 100% want to avoid munching i guess) IL before the FO/PC sequence. WJ on pull with PC is actually pretty debatable for that reason. Also FO should always be casted before PC no matter what, you want every single GCD you can to be a spell hitting the crystal.

 

PC is fine on Imperator too.

Edited January 5, 2015 by TLTeo

[Gameorg 1]

That opener is mostly correct but you shouldn't cast Frozen Orb with 2 charges of FoF, you won't be able to get rid of one of them before Orb lands leading to munching an IL. Either do not cast water jet at all on pull, or cast one (or two if you 100% want to avoid munching i guess) IL before the FO/PC sequence. WJ on pull with PC is actually pretty debatable for that reason. Also FO should always be casted before PC no matter what, you want every single GCD you can to be a spell hitting the crystal.

 

PC is fine on Imperator too.

 

 

 

This opener is especially debatable and currently discussed on altered time so lets not get too deep into it here. On max range  iam able to get off my first FoF before the frozen orb FoF Proc arrives. Only in case i get 2 FoF procs instantly, i would be munching. Imho FO during PC is a viable option (in case of standing short range) if u cast it right after the first ice lance of PC. If u spend all your FoF cast FO and then PC, you will most likely end up casting frost bolts into PC at the end of the duration, but 1 additional Ice Lance easily beats a GCD containing Frostbolt.

The middleway would be to use 1 FoF at the start and then go into FO+PC. The Risk of munching isnt too big.

 

Enough of theorycrafting

Edited January 5, 2015 by Gameorg

[Gazooten 6]

All good tips guys, I also have a frost mage I'm currently leveling and am learning a TON! Keep the tips coming guys :)

[Soulcraft 2]

I open with prepot and frostbolt ~ 2-3 seconds out.  IV + MI + on use trinket, then PC, then orb.  On fights where the boss takes a few seconds to get into position, like kargath, I frostbolt a few times before starting this rotation.  I'm at 655 ilvl and able to burst (with good rng luck), up to 45-55k.

[TLTeo 29]

Water Jet on pull when using PC is the only thing that is debatable because of FO munching FoF, casting FO after PC isn't. Either way, let's leave this to the AT thread.

[Invictus 0]

The frost opening has been very situational for me since I don't usually play frost, but it usually goes something like this. 

 

Since the first tick of water jet happens a second after it's cast, I like to open with a prepot, then start casting frost bolt at the 2 second mark, use water jet at the 1 second mark, then cast frost bolt again when the pull happens. I now have my 2 FoF procs, I then use Mirror Image>Icy Veins>Prismatic Crystal>Ice Lance>Frozen orb> then Ice Lance till the cows come home>basic frost rotation.

 

That works pretty good for me. I don't think its "optimal" but I see very good numbers with it if I ever happen to go frost.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Invictus

[Skrub 7]

@Others: Where can you read how many FOF Procs where munched or Ice Lances without FOF Proc where casted?

 

Well on the Butcher kill there were 25 FOF procs, with only 20 Ice Lances cast. So at least 5 procs were missed/munched.