SV vs MM

[Despite 0]

Hey all,

 

Noobish MM hunter here.

Got creamed by a SV hunter last night in Highmaul on every fight.

 

What's the consensus on which spec is better single target and aoe?

 

His #1 attack was serpent sting of course, which makes me think he may be better at multiple targets but will MM win out on single target?

Given equal-ish stats and optimal rotations of course.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Iridar 80]

All things being equal, SV beats MM on both AOE and single target. 

[Despite 0]

All things being equal, SV beats MM on both AOE and single target. 

 

I had a feeling.

Will try it out tonight. Hopefully it feels more mobile.

I hate feeling like my feet are encased in concrete with MM.

[Iridar 80]

I had a feeling.

Will try it out tonight. Hopefully it feels more mobile.

I hate feeling like my feet are encased in concrete with MM.

Yeah, SV is quite liberating after MM, but it does have its vices too, namely lack of execute, direct damage and a DPS cooldown, but as far as raw damage goes, SV is unrivaled.

 

Unlike other ranged DPSers, it doesn't lose any damage over movement, its highest potential is relatively easy to reach due to simple rotation. It scales *good* as the number of targets grows, regardless if they are tanked close together or spread out. 

 

SV Hunter is probably the best performing DPS class in Highmaul right now.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Iridar

[Despite 0]

Yeah, SV is quite liberating after MM, but it does have its vices too, namely lack of execute, direct damage and a DPS cooldown, but as far as raw damage goes, SV is unrivaled, and unlike other ranged DPSers, it doesn't lose any damage over movement, its highest potential is relatively easy to reach due to simple rotation. It scales *good* as the number of targets grows, regardless if they are tanked close together or spread out. 

 

Very nice. My main for years was an spriest so I know how to spread the DoT love.

 

So does that make BM just a novelty?

[Iridar 80]

Very nice. My main for years was an spriest so I know how to spread the DoT love.

 

So does that make BM just a novelty?

Well, for people who are looking to get the most possible DPS, yeah. But it won't necessarily mean killing bosses easier. 

 

BM is a viable spec, and it has everything SV is missing - execute phase, on demand burst every minute, which can be more important than just your personal damage per second. 

 

BM also has good cleave on stacked targets, but I'm not sure if it's better than SV's. Additionally, because ~half of your damage comes from the pet, you lose less DPS if you can't DPS the boss yourself for some reason. For example, BM should be quite good for Flamethrower duty: while you're busy burning moss, your pet keeps damaging the boss, all the while enjoying the increased damage from your flame stacks. Then you return to the boss and pop Bestial Wrath, doing lots of damage. 

 

BM loses DPS when target is unreachable by melee, or very mobile, but the Hunter himself is just as mobile as Lone Wolf SV is. 

[Minigun 1]

Well, for people who are looking to get the most possible DPS, yeah. But it won't necessarily mean killing bosses easier. 

 

BM is a viable spec, and it has everything SV is missing - execute phase, on demand burst every minute, which can be more important than just your personal damage per second. 

 

BM also has good cleave on stacked targets, but I'm not sure if it's better than SV's. Additionally, because ~half of your damage comes from the pet, you lose less DPS if you can't DPS the boss yourself for some reason. For example, BM should be quite good for Flamethrower duty: while you're busy burning moss, your pet keeps damaging the boss, all the while enjoying the increased damage from your flame stacks. Then you return to the boss and pop Bestial Wrath, doing lots of damage. 

 

BM loses DPS when target is unreachable by melee, or very mobile, but the Hunter himself is just as mobile as Lone Wolf SV is. 

 

Does the stacks buff your pet too?  I know a lot of the time that tends to not be the case.  Meh, I might have to try it on heroic now thats on farm. 

[Iridar 80]

Does the stacks buff your pet too?  I know a lot of the time that tends to not be the case.  Meh, I might have to try it on heroic now thats on farm. 

I assumed so, but apparently they don't  It really makes no sense, but I have compared a piece of the logs without the buff to the the piece where I have buff. Explosive Shot clearly does nearly double damage when buffed, but both pet's melee and basic attack do roughly the same damage. 

 

So I guess it's blizzard's middle finger to pet classes or something? For SV it's not a big deal, but demo warlocks and BM hunters are screwed.

[Azortharion 60]

It doesn't affect pets, has been common knowledge for a while (and the reason why nobody with a brain goes BM for Brack for example).

 

SV is mostly just a DPS whoring spec, MM is way more useful for progression.

 

Kargath: Marksmanship.

Butcher: Marksmanship progression, SV/MM for DPS. (Gear dependent).

Tectus: Beast Mastery.

Brackenspore: Marksmanship for progression (where add DPS is a problem), Survival otherwise.

Twin Ogron: Survival.

Ko'ragh: Marksmanship progression, Survival DPS.

Imperator Mar'gok: Marksmanship progression, Survival DPS.

[Ulgratron 4]

It would help if you gave information instead of pointless statements.  Marks brings nothing to the table that SV does not bring outside of add swap burst on certain fights and Marks limits our mobility (something that a lot of hunters need since they are in charge of nearly every mechanic in HM).

Edited January 10, 2015 by Ulgratron

[Iridar 80]

It would help if you gave information instead of pointless statements.  Marks brings nothing to the table that SV does not bring outside of add swap burst on certain fights

Also execute phase. 

Edited January 10, 2015 by Iridar

[Azortharion 60]

You ask, I deliver.

 

Kargath: Marksmanship for tiger burst, significantly increased output during high-Favor pushes its single-target damage ahead of SV.

Butcher: Marksmanship progression, SV/MM for DPS. (Gear dependent).

Tectus: Beast Mastery for superior burst cleave in the intense final phase.

Brackenspore: Marksmanship for progression (where add DPS is a problem), Survival otherwise.

Twin Ogron: Survival for superior and consistent 2-target damage.

Ko'ragh: Marksmanship progression for mind controls, Survival DPS for AoE.

Imperator Mar'gok: Marksmanship progression for the multitude of adds and burst on Cho'gall in the last phase.

 

 

SV is more mobility-limited than MM. None of the fights are constant, intense movement, meaning that keeping up Sniper Training is actually very simple whereas Focusing Shot is what makes a lot of SV's DPS advantage in the first place and (clearly) locks the SV hunter down moreso, especially when the penalty for dropping a Focusing Shot is so much greater than a percentage or two of Sniper Training.

[Orthios 271]

It would help if you gave information instead of pointless statements.  Marks brings nothing to the table that SV does not bring outside of add swap burst on certain fights and Marks limits our mobility (something that a lot of hunters need since they are in charge of nearly every mechanic in HM).

How does marks limit mobility? Low sniper training? That's about as limiting as focusing shot is, and if you want 100% then even more so. Loosing 5-10% uptime on ST is no big deal, that's maybe 1% loss. If you get screwed with movement and low focus with FS, your dps will plummet, and there is no way around it. Either stop moving (and potentially kill yourself/stress out your healers) or you effectively have to stop dpsing while you wait for focus (and for when you can safely stop moving to cast FS).

[Ulgratron 4]

How does marks limit mobility? Low sniper training? That's about as limiting as focusing shot is, and if you want 100% then even more so. Loosing 5-10% uptime on ST is no big deal, that's maybe 1% loss. If you get screwed with movement and low focus with FS, your dps will plummet, and there is no way around it. Either stop moving (and potentially kill yourself/stress out your healers) or you effectively have to stop dpsing while you wait for focus (and for when you can safely stop moving to cast FS).

 

Not all SV hunters are using FS.  LW/TotH is still perfectly viable as SV.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Ulgratron

[Azortharion 60]

Not all SV hunters are using FS.  LW/TotH is still perfectly viable.

 

But then you might as well go MM. LW is 1.6k DPS behind FS: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/Azortharion/SV_TalentComparisons.htmlat 33469 DPS.

 

This puts it interestingly just about equal to the best LW build for MM, at 33457: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/Azortharion/MM_TalentComparisons.html

 

Then we add the fact that the SV sims run here are using BiS SV gear which is like, crafted gear and stuff. Add more "realistic" gear (So, just Highmaul gear) and you got a win for MM. Same single-target now, superior target switching, etc etc. Only reason to go SV at that point would be Tectus or something.

 

So yeah.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Azortharion

[Ulgratron 4]

But then you might as well go MM. LW is 1.6k DPS behind FS: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/Azortharion/SV_TalentComparisons.htmlat 33469 DPS.

 

This puts it interestingly just about equal to the best LW build for MM, at 33457: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/Azortharion/MM_TalentComparisons.html

 

Then we add the fact that the SV sims run here are using BiS SV gear which is like, crafted gear and stuff. Add more "realistic" gear (So, just Highmaul gear) and you got a win for MM. Same single-target now, superior target switching, etc etc. Only reason to go SV at that point would be Tectus or something.

 

So yeah.

 

For my gear (670) TotH/LW sims 687dps under TotH/FS.  For that 687dps loss I'm able to have 100% mobility and uptime (free of both Sniper Training and FS).  

 

While I agree that TotH/FS could be a better choice (and I do use it on Butcher) there is still an upside to TotH/LW from a mobility standpoint.

 

Personally I'm not willing hinder my mobility for all fights, since I'm required to babysit all the fight mechanics for my raid, for a measly 687 dps.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Ulgratron

[Azortharion 60]

1k for you = 1.6k for the sim. The sim's DPS is higher, but with 670 iLvl the relative (%) DPS difference is the same.

 

There is an upside to ToTH/LW from a mobility standpoint, sure, but by mobility, DPS(on the move) is obviously implied. You can easily have both with a ToTH + FS build. Imperator and Tectus Mythic are the only fights on which you literally can't do the entire fight without dropping/fucking up an FS. On every other fight, it is entirely possible.

 

Even so, an interesting statistic is that the average uptime in Highmaul is 83% on Sniper Training, but that is with CONSTANTLY doing flamethrowers on Brackenspore dropping your uptime to like 40% (a fight on which you would go MM regardless of this argument because Spore Shooters) so removing that part of the statistic, the average uptime is 91%.

[Ulgratron 4]

It's all subjective IMO, that's why I don't go on general sims and I don't think anyone should.  MM even with 100% uptime on Sniper training sims far under my SV spec in my gear (I'm wearing 3 pieces of crafted 665 optimized for SV).  Which is great for me because I don't like playing MM in general.

 

If it comes to the point, gear wise,  where TotH/FS sims 1.6k higher for me than TotH/LW then I will probably switch, but that point is not here.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Ulgratron

[Azortharion 60]

It's subjective if your stance on the game is "play what you want/like and you'll perform the best that way" (which is mostly wrong depending on how close 2 choices are in actual theory).

 

+ It already IS simming 1.6k higher for you. You got 670 iLvl, the sim has 683. The immense difference in simDPS means that the RELATIVE difference is (pretty much) equal.

 

From an objective point of view, it's.. Well, not subjective. Depending on your skill level, you'll (mostly pretty easily) find better results with Focusing Shot. Takes practice, for sure, but that's what spamjoining Imperator HC groups is for. That's how I did it, anyway. The fight faces you with a lot of situations.

[Ulgratron 4]

It's subjective if your stance on the game is "play what you want/like and you'll perform the best that way" (which is mostly wrong depending on how close 2 choices are in actual theory).

 

+ It already IS simming 1.6k higher for you. You got 670 iLvl, the sim has 683. The immense difference in simDPS means that the RELATIVE difference is (pretty much) equal.

 

From an objective point of view, it's.. Well, not subjective. Depending on your skill level, you'll (mostly pretty easily) find better results with Focusing Shot. Takes practice, for sure, but that's what spamjoining Imperator HC groups is for. That's how I did it, anyway. The fight faces you with a lot of situations.

 

Sorry to break it to you but you're wrong.  It's not as cut and dry as you want it to be, different gear will produce different results, that's why people on these forums encourage others to sim their gear and not to go off of general ilvl sims.  I've simmed the spec variations multiple times for my gear and it comes out the same loss (all under 800dps).

[Azortharion 60]

Different gear will not produce dramatically different results, no.

 

You, with several crafted pieces of your own account, will actually benefit more from ToTH + FS because Multistrike favors Arcane Shot. So the only difference gear makes supports my argument and not yours.

 

Encouraging others to sim their own gear is similarly misguided because people as a general rule do not understand how to interpret sim results, because it is not as cut and dry as THEY want it to be (and you, by extension).

 

If you linked your sims to me, I could probably list quite a few reasons why they are faulty/why your deductions are wrong. Are you up for that?

[Orthios 271]

Different gear will not produce dramatically different results, no.

 

You, with several crafted pieces of your own account, will actually benefit more from ToTH + FS because Multistrike favors Arcane Shot. So the only difference gear makes supports my argument and not yours.

 

Encouraging others to sim their own gear is similarly misguided because people as a general rule do not understand how to interpret sim results, because it is not as cut and dry as THEY want it to be (and you, by extension).

 

If you linked your sims to me, I could probably list quite a few reasons why they are faulty/why your deductions are wrong. Are you up for that?

Hell, I just want to know what APL and settings you are using.

[Azortharion 60]

Hell, I just want to know what APL and settings you are using.

All my "general sims", the important ones are mostly updated for release 22: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/Azortharion/

 

http://pastebin.com/u/Azortharionalternative form of the T17A hunter profiles. 

 

426s - 45% variation.

 

Slightly modified APL's, I haven't messed with defaults in ages so I don't quite remember what the specific differences are.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Azortharion