How important is Explosive Trap to the Survival Rotation?

[Galluccio 0]

I was reading that Explosive trap is now part of the Survival rotation.  I was trying it out and frankly I don't enjoy using it.  How important is explosive trap in the rotation?

[Galluccio 0]

Also, it seems odd that Barrage is really good on single targets.  Is that really right?

[sbVital 2]

I was reading that Explosive trap is now part of the Survival rotation.  I was trying it out and frankly I don't enjoy using it.  How important is explosive trap in the rotation?

 

Explosive trap, from my understanding, is very very low on the priority list for single target, but it is a DPS gain. It's almost a pain to use it and may end up costing you DPS if you dont play it right.

 

Explosive trap is mandatory on multi-target fights.

 

 

Also, Galluccio, shouldn't you be out leveling  a 12th level 100 hunter?

[Iridar 80]

I was reading that Explosive trap is now part of the Survival rotation.  I was trying it out and frankly I don't enjoy using it.  How important is explosive trap in the rotation?

Here are simcraft results for my gear.

 

As you can see, Explosive Trap is a minor DPS gain. It's a lowest priority, right after dumping TotH proc, but I wouldn't cast it if Explosive Shot has 2 seconds on cooldown, and cast a Cobra Shot instead. 

 

Overall, it's not really worth it. If you mess up and miss, or spend too much time aiming, it will turn from a DPS gain to a DPS loss. Only use it when you're really confident, or as a rotational plug, when you have exactly one spare GCD. 

 

On 2+ targets, Exp. Trap is your highest priority, though. 

Also, it seems odd that Barrage is really good on single targets.  Is that really right?

Not sure where you got that. As you can see, Barrage is a DPS loss in single target. Barrage is barely even worth on 2 targets, and should be used only to try and proc TotH. 

Edited January 8, 2015 by Iridar

[Orthios 271]

Explosive Trap nicely fills some of the gaps in the SV rotation, and should be used as needed to fill them.  Barrage is not better for ST (Kargath ground and butcher), but once a second target is introduced barrage pulls way ahead.  That said, Glaive Toss is barely a dps gain (~50) if you use it at all, and again would be used to fill in some of the gaps in the rotation.

[Galluccio 0]

"For single target DPS,  Barrage is the best choice, provided that you are also using the Steady Focus talent. In any other situations,  Glaive Toss is the better choice."

[Iridar 80]

This info is outdated. Glaive Toss sims as barely even a DPS gain over not using anything. 

So you should take Barrage and use it to cleave 2+ targets, and if the fight is purely single target (e.g. Butcher) you can pre-cast a GT on pull, but personally I wouldn't even waste a tome on respeccing for that.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Iridar

[Niix 169]

This info is outdated. Glaive Toss sims as barely even a DPS gain over not using anything. 

So you should take Barrage and use it to cleave 2+ targets, and if the fight is purely single target (e.g. Butcher) you can pre-cast a GT on pull, but personally I wouldn't even waste a tome on respeccing for that.

 

I quite literally spec GT on JUST Butcher as SV. For the pre-cast and any movement I need to do. Other than that it should only really be cast if you have nothing better to do, and don't want to waste 30 focus on an Arcane Shot.

 

Most of the time, having barrage as a talent and only using it when you can hit 2+ adds is beneficial.

[sbVital 2]

This info is outdated. Glaive Toss sims as barely even a DPS gain over not using anything. 

So you should take Barrage and use it to cleave 2+ targets, and if the fight is purely single target (e.g. Butcher) you can pre-cast a GT on pull, but personally I wouldn't even waste a tome on respeccing for that.

 

Didn't know the guide was out of date either, good to know.

 

 

So are you saying that either talent is almost not even worth using, so just stick with Barrage and use it to cleave? Am I getting that right? Should we even use at all on single target? So let's say on Butcher, if we have Barrage, don't stress on getting the 60ish focus to use it? Just worry about ES - AS - FS and Serpent Sting? Kind of odd that abilities aren't getting used. Sims don't lie though.

 

 

ETA: Just saw last reply, answered my question. Thanks.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Endijor

[Orthios 271]

Didn't know the guide was out of date either, good to know.

 

 

So are you saying that either talent is almost not even worth using, so just stick with Barrage and use it to cleave? Am I getting that right? Should we even use at all on single target? So let's say on Butcher, if we have Barrage, don't stress on getting the 60ish focus to use it? Just worry about ES - AS - FS and Serpent Sting? Kind of odd that abilities aren't getting used. Sims don't lie though.

Spec Barrage and don't fret about it. Simply make sure that you hit 2 targets before using it and you're good.

[Iridar 80]

Spec Barrage and don't fret about it. Simply make sure that you hit 2 targets before using it and you're good.

A bit not as simple as that, on 2 targets Barrage is also just a small DPS boost, so it should be used mainly to try and proc TotH with it, and only after you make sure that both targets have Serpent Sting on them, and that casting Barrage won't focus starve you to cast coming off cooldown Black Arrow. 

[Minigun 1]

A bit not as simple as that, on 2 targets Barrage is also just a small DPS boost, so it should be used mainly to try and proc TotH with it, and only after you make sure that both targets have Serpent Sting on them, and that casting Barrage won't focus starve you to cast coming off cooldown Black Arrow. 

 

Didn't you do a sim with 2 targets and came up with a priority list?  I tried to find that post, but I couldn't.

[bellsprout 1]

I don't quite get how GT is a minor DPS up. Compared to what? replacing it with Barrage when you can cleave more than one target, or leaving it out of the rotation? Without it, and say you're running stampede, then you're going to be dumping the rest of your excess focus on AS, and GT is a pretty significant DPS+ on AS (no ToTH) right? Are you saying that GT is only a slight DPS upgrade over a 3 button rotation?

 

Another question I have is on the use of Barrage and FS/SF. So the guide (may be outdated) says not to take Barrage without FS/SF. My experience agrees with this, as I cannot include a 60 focus ability effectively in a rotation that has 100 focus. But then you say to not take GT on fights like Tectus, Is there a good way to use Barrage with ToTH/LW in fights like this, or is speccing FS/SF mandatory? If the latter, what do you do if you're casting FS and a rock falls on you, or you need focus and you're forced to run? seems very clunky.

[Minigun 1]

I don't quite get how GT is a minor DPS up. Compared to what? replacing it with Barrage when you can cleave more than one target, or leaving it out of the rotation? Without it, and say you're running stampede, then you're going to be dumping the rest of your excess focus on AS, and GT is a pretty significant DPS+ on AS (no ToTH) right? Are you saying that GT is only a slight DPS upgrade over a 3 button rotation?

 

Another question I have is on the use of Barrage and FS/SF. So the guide (may be outdated) says not to take Barrage without FS/SF. My experience agrees with this, as I cannot include a 60 focus ability effectively in a rotation that has 100 focus. But then you say to not take GT on fights like Tectus, Is there a good way to use Barrage with ToTH/LW in fights like this, or is speccing FS/SF mandatory? If the latter, what do you do if you're casting FS and a rock falls on you, or you need focus and you're forced to run? seems very clunky.

 

GT for single target is a dps gain over arcane shot in single target.  I can't remember if Barrage single target was a dps gain or loss for survival.  Either way it was really close, and the consensus was that it's not remotely worth it. 

 

You should leave barrage out of the rotation, unless you can cleave 2+ targets.

 

The only time you would consider using GT is in a single target fight, with focusing shot, and there is some mobility required.  in which case, you pop GT when you are required to move, but don't have the focus to AS. 

 

Yes, adding in GT is a very small dps gain to a 3 button rotation (4 buttons with AMOC). 

 

 

Personally i use FS on tectus, but I am not on mythic tectus yet.  That will probably be next week for me.  If I was going to play LW on that fight, I might actually go MM.   Chimera shot actually has a good chance to properly cleave, and barrage isn't hard to squueze in on CD.   Beast mastery is supposed to be really good there too, but I have never tried it.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Minigun

[bellsprout 1]

So are there any fights you would take SV ToTH/LW/Barrage? I know that FS/SF is supposed to be DPS up, but you need to know when to move, and in progression fights I always move more than I need to, so I'd rather stick with  LW/ToTH.

 

BTW, do you know what % of damage your pet contributes? Do you ever have to micro you pet in a fight?

 

 

[Iridar 80]

Didn't you do a sim with 2 targets and came up with a priority list?  I tried to find that post, but I couldn't.

That post is here.

 

So are there any fights you would take SV ToTH/LW/Barrage?

That's how I raid 99% of the time. Yes, Barrage is costly at 60 focus, but in AOE sutuations delaying Exp. Shot / Black Arrow to Barrage them is not a big deal. The more targets there are - the higher priority Barrage gets compared to ES / BA. 

[bellsprout 1]

That's how I raid 99% of the time. Yes, Barrage is costly at 60 focus, but in AOE sutuations delaying Exp. Shot / Black Arrow to Barrage them is not a big deal. The more targets there are - the higher priority Barrage gets compared to ES / BA. 

I was wondering that. There's so many situations where I have 60 focus and both barrage and ES are off CD. ES I read as being higher priority but if I cast it then I can't cast barrage, but if I cast barrage, I'll have enough focus for ES after.

[Orthios 271]

So are there any fights you would take SV ToTH/LW/Barrage? I know that FS/SF is supposed to be DPS up, but you need to know when to move, and in progression fights I always move more than I need to, so I'd rather stick with  LW/ToTH.

 

BTW, do you know what % of damage your pet contributes? Do you ever have to micro you pet in a fight?

Not speaking for mythic here, but for SV I can't stand LW/TotH, it leaves me way too focus starved. FS/TotH however, is quite nice (as is FS/SF). As for mobility, there's always a time to be able to stop for ~2.3s and cast FS, and if not, well, we have aspect of the fox for a reason right? As for your pet, you can look at a log ad it will tell you what % of your damage was your pet, and no, you shouldn't have to micro manage your pet at all.

[bellsprout 1]

Not speaking for mythic here, but for SV I can't stand LW/TotH, it leaves me way too focus starved.

does that mean you never cast AS to dump focus as LW/TotH?

[Orthios 271]

does that mean you never cast AS to dump focus as LW/TotH?

Never? No, I just tend to cast it way too often when I use LW/TotH.  Focus Starved means that I don't have enough focus to use my main abilities (ES, BA) on cd when I should, which is a result of 1) casting too many AS, or 2) not enough focus generation.

[bellsprout 1]

Never? No, I just tend to cast it way too often when I use LW/TotH.  Focus Starved means that I don't have enough focus to use my main abilities (ES, BA) on cd when I should, which is a result of 1) casting too many AS, or 2) not enough focus generation.

if you're used to playing FS you get into the habit of dumping focus routinely. it's harder to get focus capped with LW/TotH so you can wait till you have 80 focus before you ever cast AS without a TotH proc 

[Orthios 271]

if you're used to playing FS you get into the habit of dumping focus routinely. it's harder to get focus capped with LW/TotH so you can wait till you have 80 focus before you ever cast AS without a TotH proc 

Yeah, thing is, I don't play LW/TotH for SV, ever.  The loss of mobility of FS has become a non-issue for me and any kinks that are left get worked out fairly fast, so I use that as default.

[Ulgratron 4]

Yeah, thing is, I don't play LW/TotH for SV, ever.  The loss of mobility of FS has become a non-issue for me and any kinks that are left get worked out fairly fast, so I use that as default.

 

 

No offense, but you're logs don't show you in Mythic yet.  Mobility is a precious thing after Heroic.

[Orthios 271]

No offense, but you're logs don't show you in Mythic yet.  Mobility is a precious thing after Heroic.

And if you read my earlier post, I said that I wasn't.

 

Not speaking for mythic here, but for SV I can't stand LW/TotH, it leaves me way too focus starved. FS/TotH however, is quite nice (as is FS/SF). As for mobility, there's always a time to be able to stop for ~2.3s and cast FS, and if not, well, we have aspect of the fox for a reason right? As for your pet, you can look at a log ad it will tell you what % of your damage was your pet, and no, you shouldn't have to micro manage your pet at all.

[Iridar 80]

does that mean you never cast AS to dump focus as LW/TotH?

Ofc we do, at around 80 or more focus. We just do it reluctantly, hoping that TotH will proc from BA / ES, and we try to delay dumping focus with AS as long as possible by casting Explosive Trap and Cobra Shot until we're in danger of overcapping.