Use Focus Fire on cooldown!

[Maiko 1]

hi,

 

only trying to get a bit attention for my question, but the topic title is still right i think.

 

In your Beast Mastery Guide https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/beast-mastery-hunter-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities there stand you should use Focus Fire with 5 stacks and a bit lower some advice about using it during bestial wrath. A information you find everywhere.

 

But i think it doesn't matter how much stacks you have .. use it on the spot. Because the Pet gets only 4% haste from 1 stack of Frenzy but 6% haste from you if you have 1 stack of Focus Fire. Because Hunter Haste = Pet Haste

 

So even if you only watch the Pet DPS it would increase through this additional 2% haste. But now also the hunter gets 6% Haste and 5% AP.

 

I got a few numbers on a short testing:

 

FrenzyStacks >> FocusFireStacks >> Pet Attack Speed

0 >> 0 >> 1,69 (i have 7,73% Haste so my pet aswell)

1 >> 0 >> 1,62

0 >> 1 >> 1,59

1 >> 1 >> 1,53

5 >> 0 >> 1,41

0 >> 5 >> 1,30 (so i even would say USE IT DEFINITLY before bestial wrath)

 

You would loose a bit dps if your Pet Frenzy stacks get around 3 or higher before your Focus Fire (with 1 stacks) runs out. No maths to proof only a feeling. Maybe some math crack can check at which stacks you should use focus fire that you can get the most use out of it .. i suggest 2 stacks maybe already 1 stack.

 

So i hope i didn't miss a important point that makes my suggestions incorrect. Would already be incorrect if the point that "hunter haste = pet haste" is false .. but my windows ingame show it me that way.

 

 

[Azortharion 60]

 

 

 

 

With 1 stack, you spend 47 globals casting a non-damaging global.

[Maiko 1]

hmm okay Global Cooldown.

 

But it wouldn't only a few times be 1 stacks. Okay would be all 20 seconds a global cd but every use of it gets you a damage increase for the 20seconds.

How much worth is a global cd ? Let's say how much damage increase should it be to be used instead of an arkanshot?

 

i'm missing a bit the time where someone was doing the maths and didn't use a tool where he may don't know the used mechanics for it. For example the 1 Stacks DPS Ranking seems to be an output if it would be EVERY time only 1 stack .. and that wouldn't be the case ..

 

*edit

i'm sorry if you exactly know the maths behind the DPS Ranking tool you used ^^

Edited January 15, 2015 by Maiko

[Azortharion 60]

it's a simulator, not a "math tool". I literally just told it to play like how you are suggesting and it is an immense DPS loss because it is WAY more efficient to get 5 stacks and pop it rather than popping it all the freaking time to make use of 1 stack. Yes, it's a DPS increase over not using it at ALL, but it's not worth using at anything below.

[Maiko 1]

Hmm i'm still not convinced.

 

Because even a 6% HunterHaste, 2% Pethaste, 5% AP increase is a huge Buff and that would be only 1 Stack of Focus Fire, wouldn't you say so ? And it would only use a CD for Arcanshot (our least priotorized globalcd)

 

Or lets say it is for 20 seconds:

12% Hunterhaste, 4% Pethaste, 10% AP vs 1 Arcanshot

18% Hunterhaste, 6% Pethaste, 15% AP vs 1 Arcanshot

24% Hunterhaste, 8% Pethaste, 20% AP vs 1 Arcanshot

30% Hunterhaste, 10% Pethaste, 25% AP vs 1 Arcanshot

gets your pet also a bit focus..

 

I would maybe choose from 2 stacks on and only if i need burst in the next few seconds i would wait and hope for more stacks

Edited January 15, 2015 by Maiko

[Azortharion 60]

There is sense in dropping whatever stacks you have before BW, but that's it. Constantly using it on cd is, as the sim implies, a DPS loss.

 

You can remain unconvinced all you want, but if you want to push this for the guide you're gonna have to try and point out how the simulations lie. As far as I can tell, everything checks out as it should.

[Maiko 1]

Hmm i have tried a little bit, all numbers are for my hunter without trinkets and ring

and please be aware that they are far from accurate the numbers are only going in the direction to get a roughly impression:

 

arcane per shot >> 7794

auto per shot >> 3627

cobra per shot >> 4623

kill command >> non crit 10893

 

in 20 seconds approx 8 autoshot, 5 arcane (only pick a number what could be realistic and not too much), 5 cobrashot, 2x kill command

 

Autoshots:

for 1 stack focus fire an Autoshot gets something around 140 damage more and i would add 6% more for the haste buff so for autoshot would be

8x 3627 = 29016

8x (3627+140) x 1,06 = 31944,16

---------

31944,16 - 29016 = 2928 damage in 20 seconds

 

Cobrashots:

for 1 stack focus fire an cobrashot gets around 124 damage also cast time reduced by 6% so 6% more cobrashots? so 6% damage increase

5 x 4263 = 21315

5 x (4263+124) x 1,06 = 23251,1

----------

23251,1-21315 = 1936 damage in 20 seconds

 

Arkanshot

+ around 2,8% damage increase for the ap 7794x1,028

5x 7794 = 38970

5x 7794x1,028= 40061

----------

40061 - 38970 = 1091 damage in 20 seconds

 

kill command

seems to get around 5% damage increase for 5% ap in my case

2x 10893 = 21786

2x 10893x 1,05 = 22875

----------

22875 - 21786 = 1089 damage in 20 seconds

____________

 

2928+1936+1091+1089= 7044 more damage during the next 20 seconds for 1 stack

vs

1 arkanshot = 7794

 

2 stacks should net you around 14k more

 

and the pet also gets the buffs

but the arcan also get you with 20% chance a procc for pet attacks

 

so in conclusion i would say .. 1 stack = 1 arcane shot, 2 stacks > arcane shot...

 

I would love it if someone who knows the theory behind it to take a look and did a longer test.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Maiko

[Iridar 80]

I would love it if someone who knows the theory behind it to take a look and did a longer test.

Azor already did the test, and it shows that your conclusions are wrong. Simulationcraft is the best tool for the job, and it's certainly better than napkin math. 

 

Believe it, if casting Focus Fire at fewer than 5 stacks was worth it - we would know by now.

[Niix 169]

Azor already did the test, and it shows that your conclusions are wrong. Simulationcraft is the best tool for the job, and it's certainly better than napkin math. 

 

Believe it, if casting Focus Fire at fewer than 5 stacks was worth it - we would know by now.

 

Iridar is right. It's just over complicating something we have already figured out, it's only really a gain to cast it on low stacks if it is about to fall off and you'd lose the stacks anyways.

[Maiko 1]

i try to contact Simulationcraft.

 

2 possibilites

 

1.

i'm wrong - much likely

2.

simulationcraft did not cover this yet/old data/false calculation and so i'm right in some degree - could be

 

@Iridar thx for your constructive criticsm!!!! *sigh* I mentioned it is crude but i tried to provide some data. All i get back is: "the tool is absolute and foolproof".

 

But nevertheless i got an

There is sense in dropping whatever stacks you have before BW, but that's it.

Or will you say this is also false ... then i would like to hear a reason for that.

 

If i remember there was a time where focus fire only got you range attack speed and from this time there is the advice to let frenzy stay during bestialwrath.

But this is gone since Oct14 Source: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=82692/focus-fire#changelog but this advice is still used everywhere and copy paste from site to site.

[Orthios 271]

i try to contact Simulationcraft.

 

2 possibilites

 

1.

i'm wrong - much likely

2.

simulationcraft did not cover this yet/old data/false calculation and so i'm right in some degree - could be

 

@Iridar thx for your constructive criticsm!!!! *sigh* I mentioned it is crude but i tried to provide some data. All i get back is: "the tool is absolute and foolproof".

 

But nevertheless i got an

Or will you say this is also false ... then i would like to hear a reason for that.

 

If i remember there was a time where focus fire only got you range attack speed and from this time there is the advice to let frenzy stay during bestialwrath.

But this is gone since Oct14 Source: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=82692/focus-fire#changelog but this advice is still used everywhere and copy paste from site to site.

The time where FF was only used under certain conditions was removed with the 6.0 pre-patch, an I have numbers somewhere (I think in the transition guide) that said to use it on cd with 5 stacks, but only with 5. Note that this was in game testing during the pre-patch and this didn't include the 5% AP perk. If you're not going to trust Nnx, Azor, or Iridar when they have said tht it is not worth using sub 5 stacks, then I'm not sure what I can say to convince you of it, even though that is the truth. And SimC is up to date on FF stacks and the perk, as it has so far taken into account every other levelin perk for each class I've summed so far (all 3 hunter specs, 2 Mage specs and destro lock), so I doubt they would miss that one perk. And considering it is in te spell data for FF itself, I highly doubt that that would be the case.

[Maiko 1]

thx for this reply

 

and yes maybe i'm not convinced until i get a reply by someone from simulationcraft or did a, lets say 10 minute test each on a puppet.

 

1. usage on cooldown

2. usage if at least 2 stacks

3. usage if 5 stacks or before it expires

 

Maybe these test prove me wrong, maybe not.

 

I will do it later and if i afterwards still insist on my statement i'll post the numbers again. And in this case i would love it if someone would try it out too.

 

But for now i must do a bit study work ^^

Edited January 15, 2015 by Maiko

[Orthios 271]

The chance that you will have 5 stacks of frenzy before FF is done is about 5%. That might seem like a pretty decent chance, but it's not really, as you are relying on 6 individual events where at least 5/6 end as true with a 40% success rate. The odds are not in your favor here. Also, Azor DID test out points 1 and 2 in his first reply. The dps loss is not worth having the "higher" uptime on FF. As for point 3, I've effectively discredited it as you will almost never be in that scenario where you do get 5 stacks before it runs out (you are most likely to have 2 or 3 stacks, upwards of 55% chance between the two), and we've seen that it is a dps loss to use with sub 5 stacks from Azor's tests.

[Azortharion 60]

thx for this reply

 

and yes maybe i'm not convinced until i get a reply by someone from simulationcraft or did a, lets say 10 minute test each on a puppet.

 

1. usage on cooldown

2. usage if at least 2 stacks

3. usage if 5 stacks or before it expires

 

Maybe these test prove me wrong, maybe not.

 

I will do it later and if i afterwards still insist on my statement i'll post the numbers again. And in this case i would love it if someone would try it out too.

 

But for now i must do a bit study work ^^

 

I am in daily correspondence with the code wizards behind SimCraft and have personally  (to the best of my ability) confirmed that nothing is off with regards to coding.

 

What are you gonna ask them anyway? "Hey, have you fucked the coding for this ability?", if they knew they had they would probably fix it, which is where you come in to tell us why you think that it is wrong.

[Maiko 1]

The chance that you will have 5 stacks of frenzy before FF is done is about 5%. That might seem like a pretty decent chance, but it's not really, as you are relying on 6 individual events where at least 5/6 end as true with a 40% success rate. The odds are not in your favor here. Also, Azor DID test out points 1 and 2 in his first reply. The dps loss is not worth having the "higher" uptime on FF. As for point 3, I've effectively discredited it as you will almost never be in that scenario where you do get 5 stacks before it runs out (you are most likely to have 2 or 3 stacks, upwards of 55% chance between the two), and we've seen that it is a dps loss to use with sub 5 stacks from Azor's tests.

Sorry english isn't my mother tongue so maybe you misinterpret me or i did it now with you

 

i'll do 3 different test runs

 

1. Test

FF on cooldown... it would many times be 2 or 3 and almost never 5 between 2 cd's of FF

 

2. Test

FF at 2 stacks at least.. it would many times be 2 or 3 and almost never 5 between 2 cd's of FF

 

3. Test

Traditional use at 5 Stacks only or before the stacks expires aka "pet is too stupid to get another frenzy stack after 30 seconds" (seldom but it happens.. 40% are 40% ^^)

 

And sorry that i really didn't trust the first one. The difference really seems to much in hinsight of the fact that during 20 seconds you normaly have around 2-3 stacks, so dps should be more near the 2 or 3 stack case for the 1 stack case. The simulation is for how much minutes ? Because of the mentioned 47 global castings ? would be around 15 to 16 minutes ? And so i would "waste" also around 40 global cast for 2 and 3 stacks. But again, maybe it is true.

 

Sorry that i'm so persistent :-) don't be furious about it.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Maiko

[Orthios 271]

Ok, so, again, with the first two tests, it has been proven by Azor's tests that it is a loss to use FF with less than 5 stacks. As for the third, there is (quite literally) a 0.6% chance that your 4 stack of frenzy would expire rather than gain a 5th stack in the 30s that the buff lasts (60% fail chance * 10 individual events = .6^10 chance at all events failing = .00604 chance were 1.00 = 100%).

[Maiko 1]

Ok, so, again, with the first two tests, it has been proven by Azor's tests that it is a loss to use FF with less than 5 stacks. As for the third, there is (quite literally) a 0.6% chance that your 4 stack of frenzy would expire rather than gain a 5th stack in the 30s that the buff lasts (60% fail chance * 10 individual events = .6^10 chance at all events failing = .00604 chance were 1.00 = 100%).

 okay 2 people misunderstand my third test .. ^^ need an english lesson on how to say it right xD .. the third one would be the "normal" way of using FF like all off you suggest it!

Edited January 15, 2015 by Maiko

[Orthios 271]

okay 2 people misunderstand my third test .. ^^ need an english lesson on how to say it right xD .. the third one would be the "normal" way of using FF like all off you suggest it!

I understood it the last time and was explaining why you would never need to use it before it expires, since 99.4% of the time you will get a 5th stack before it expires. And yet again, the this test has been done by Azor already.

[Maiko 1]

I understood it the last time and was explaining why you would never need to use it before it expires, since 99.4% of the time you will get a 5th stack before it expires. And yet again, the this test has been done by Azor already.

ah okay then i have misunderstand you .. but this case i mentioned as seldom, okay very seldom, almost never happening^^