Demonbolt Rotation Controversy

[spikeysquad 50]

Hi All,

 

WoD has been out 2 months now and it seems there still isn't a general consensus of how to DB. Sure there's always someone who says do Destro/Affliction a different way to everyone else but these are a minority and I have never seen such a big split as with the DB debate with high end players on different sides.

 

To clarify these groups tend to be 1. Dump all fury into DB as soon as it's off cooldown. 2. Wait for 850 and Dump 4. 3 Wait for DS and Dump. I am sure that there are some other suggestions though with waiting for some other random proc.  

 

So what's the issue? Is it really that close that it really doesn't matter how you use? Is it all down to gear and if you have say 10% Crit and 5% Haste do it one way and another if not? Is it about the moon phase?

 

I don't want to start a debate nor am I saying anyone is wrong. My main point is I feel lost and I do not have the skills personally to work out which is better. How can I work out how to play it the best way?

 

Spikeyshard

Edited January 15, 2015 by spikeysquad

[iriecolorado 3]

I'm personally in camp 3.  Assuming I'm in a position mechanically where I know I can dump, I wait for DS to be up and dump regardless of fury levels.  

 

It's all about lining up DB and DS, keeping those cooldowns rolling, in my opinion. 

Edited January 15, 2015 by iriecolorado

[Paracel 165]

I'm personally in camp 3.  Assuming I'm in a position mechanically where I know I can dump, I wait for DS to be up and dump regardless of fury levels.  

 

It's all about lining up DB and DS, keeping those cooldowns rolling, in my opinion. 

Pretty much this.

Thumbs up, mate, and jam those numberz!

Edit : explaination of my point.

You only have 4 DB maximum in best case. 

And you want this limited amount of spells to hit as hard as possible.

Dumping as soon as it gets 850 - no multiplicaton of big and badass spell to big and badass buff.

 

Dumping ASAP makes it even more worse - you don't get increased damage for debuff and more related stuff(talking debuff duration).

It's all about the multiplying now - CB*DS*Procs for Destro, Haunt* DS*Drainsoul for Aff and DB*DS for Demo.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Paracel

[Bombsauce 3]

Watching Xyronic from Blood Legion's stream last night, he said he was in the process of making a Demonology guide. Looking forward to what he has to say. Interestingly he said that Demo was now better for every fight in HM, in every situation. Not sure I buy that, but he's of course speaking from his perspective of being in full mythic gear.  

[Liquidsteel 279]

Demo pretty much is top on everything now. Destruction is still better for Spore Shooter damage on Brackenspore progress but with current gear levels they likely aren't as much of an issue as they were in 660ilvl.

[Soulzar 42]

Demo pretty much is top on everything now. Destruction is still better for Spore Shooter damage on Brackenspore progress but with current gear levels they likely aren't as much of an issue as they were in 660ilvl.

 

I played DB on our Bracken kill for Heroic this week and kept up with our Destro who I struggle to pace as Destro.  Did Flamethrower on our attempts for  Mythic rekill last night and while it can be very hard to keep fury generation up a bit later in fight when moss management gets harrier, DB cycle every time you hit 10 stacks of the buff is amazing dmg.

[Soulzar 42]

In regards to 3 vs 4.. I use both.

 

On Butcher for example, on pull with hero and also Shards of Nothing I can do the initial 2DB, and two 4DB cycles easily.  On my next cycle however if I build for a 4DB cycle I end up with my 2m trinket coming off cooldown while I am only around 300 fury.

For this reason I started doing a 3DB dump on that one so that I could build up enough for a 4DB dump on the following which would pair with my 2m trinket.

[Twinkielock 15]

I actually came here to post a similar thread.   Though I'm more wondering lets say you have 400-500 fury, and DS is up.  Do you launch 2-3 demon bolts or wait until you can get 4 off?

[Liquidsteel 279]

Just launch 3. There's no proof that delaying Demonbolt is beneficial in order to get 4, so just cast it as soon as you can.

[Oldtrout 7]

With AD talented you can always line up your first three DB cycles with DS whenever the debuff drops (the fourth will be pretty close). Beyond that I think delaying the cycle until your DS is back up (and thus usually having enough fury for 4 DBs) is better than casting a 3 DB cycle with no dark soul at all.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Oldtrout

[Liquidsteel 279]

Yeah I will delay for Dark Soul, but most fights end up having mechanics anyway which can cause you to wait. 

 

Again, this just feels correct, and Demonbolt is still a very unexplored topic.

[Yarilo 1]

Yeah... I didn't feel too smart when I realized I popped DS, my trinket and pot as bounding cleave was going to happen on our butcher kill.

[Zinthar 2]

This is an interesting question.  My initial instinct was to say just wait for the DS cooldown to come up again, but it's more complicated than that because of how fury inefficient the 4th DB cast is. 

 

As an initial matter, I'd like to clarify what the exact effect of DS on each cast of DB is.  If the DB #1 is 100% of normal damage, + 30% for DS, then your first DB hits for 130% of normal damage.  For the second one, which would be 120% of normal damage without DS, does the 30% buff stack on top (ie 120% * 1.3 = 156%)?  If so, then the damage of each DB cast is as follows:

 

First % without DS / second is with DS

DB 1: 100%/130%, 80 fury

DB 2: 120%/156%, 160 fury

DB 3: 140%/182%, 240 fury

DB 4: 160%/208%, 320 fury

 

Looking at this, I'm now thinking that in most situations where there isn't a specific moment when you need to burst (or when the boss has a weakness period), it may be worthwhile to try to use all of your fury when the DB debuff is down regardless of whether DS is available or not -- BUT, with the caveat that you may want to limit your DB usage at such times to 2 (and save the extra fury for your next window).  Casting two DB's without DS should deal slightly more damage (100+120 = 220%) than the fourth DB with DS (208%), and will cost 80 fewer fury. 

 

Casting a third DB without DS is probably inadvisable in almost all instances because it's less fury-efficient for the amount of damage it deals than a fourth DB with DS.

 

Fury Cost Efficiency, where first DB without DS = 100% 

DB 1: 100%/130%

DB 2: 60%/78%

DB 3: 47%/61%

DB 4: 40%/52%

 

Anyway, I thought it'd help to put the numbers down to see what others think of it.  Let me know if I made an error in my assumption for how DS stacks with each consecutive DB; I'll update the numbers accordingly.

 

A good next step might be to see what average fury generation rates are looking like on certain types of fights so that we know how to deal as much damage as possible over the long run, at least in theory.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Zinthar

[Soulzar 42]

I like the logic used in this post. ^^

[Oldtrout 7]

This is an interesting question.  My initial instinct was to say just wait for the DS cooldown to come up again, but it's more complicated than that because of how fury inefficient the 4th DB cast is. 

 

As an initial matter, I'd like to clarify what the exact effect of DS on each cast of DB is.  If the DB #1 is 100% of normal damage, + 30% for DS, then your first DB hits for 130% of normal damage.  For the second one, which would be 120% of normal damage without DS, does the 30% buff stack on top (ie 120% * 1.3 = 156%).  If so, then the damage of each DB cast is as follows:

 

First % without DS / second is with DS

DB 1: 100%/130%, 80 fury

DB 2: 120%/156%, 160 fury

DB 3: 140%/182%, 240 fury

DB 4: 160%/208%, 320 fury

 

Looking at this, I'm now thinking that in most situations where there isn't a specific moment when you need to burst (or when the boss has a weakness period), it may be worthwhile to try to use all of your fury when the DB debuff is down regardless of whether DS is available or not -- BUT, with the caveat that you may want to limit your DB usage at such times to 2 (and save the extra fury for your next window).  Casting two DB's without DS should deal slightly more damage (100+120 = 220%) than the fourth DB with DS (208%), and will cost 80 fewer fury. 

 

Casting a third DB without DS is probably inadvisable in almost all instances because it's less fury-efficient for the amount of damage it deals than a fourth DB with DS.

 

Fury Cost Efficiency, where first DB without DS = 100% 

DB 1: 100%/130%

DB 2: 60%/78%

DB 3: 47%/61%

DB 4: 40%/52%

 

Anyway, I thought it'd help to put the numbers down to see what others think of it.  Let me know if I made an error in my assumption for how DS stacks with each consecutive DB; I'll update the numbers accordingly.

 

A good next step might be to see what average fury generation rates are looking like on certain types of fights so that we know how to deal as much damage as possible over the long run, at least in theory.

 

You're definitely putting a lot more thought into it than I am, but one thing I'm thinking here is that you can't just compare an unbuffed 2-demonbolt cycle to the fourth demonbolt in a buffed cycle because of the debuff. The debuff is definitely worth the cost of an entire buffed 3 or 4 DB cycle - is it worth it for two unbuffed demonbolts? Every time we end a DB cycle our damage output is gimped for 30-40 seconds.

 

In any case, one demonbolt cycle without DS should enable the next two to be used with DS again, so it is definitely worth considering. 

Edited January 16, 2015 by Oldtrout

[spikeysquad 50]

Thanks everyone for sharing. So many people agreeing for a change. Have been working on waiting for DS today. Not quite sure if it's better but like I said I really cannot figure this out.

 

I have been going down a different path than you Zinthar but what you wrote makes sense. 

 

So my thoughts were along the lines of if you wait for DS then basically you are "wasting" 15 seconds. 35 seconds CD on DB and say 10 seconds to get the DBs out making it a 45 second cycle. So over the course of a 7 minutes fight (or perhaps 6 minutes is more of the average) you get 7X15=105 seconds "wasted". 105/45=2 more DB cycles so let's say 7 DBs because we had to run around like headless chickens for a bit and fury gain was limited.

 

So are the DBs buffed all nicely with DS/other procs/trinkies outweighing having 7 more per fight? Yes, yes I am aware that this is without AD and then hence then you would only have 3-4 DBs extra then in a fight? So is my maths ok or did I miss something major? Probably the latter as I said this is totally confusing me. 

 

So now I guess I have to work on seeing what a DS buffed DB is and what an unbuffed one is like.   

[spikeysquad 50]

Playing around with it a bit more I'm becoming more sure that wait for DS is the the way to go as in the above example I was missing a few things so just ignore my ramblings. 

 

What you posted Zinthar makes sense and would line us back up with DS better. I personally don't have the knowledge to really look at the numbers but they are intriguing. Yes perhaps there is even another camp. Do most with DS and have 1-2 cycles without (but with procs hopefully) to bring us back in line. 

 

I kind of have the same feelings as Oldtrout and only doing 2 instead of 3-4 if we have the fury and the the same debuff may be a waste however this is only a feeling; I have nothing to back it up. Of course less DB=more fury to use in other ways but I am not sure how that stacks up. DB just seems too strong in comparison.

Edited January 17, 2015 by spikeysquad

[Hybrex 1]

I'm sure the great God ghadda will come in here with some info if he had anything concrete

[Bombsauce 3]

ive found it an increase while using sandman's pouch - as long as my debuff is gone, to dump during it's proc even if i haven't reached 850. 

[spikeysquad 50]

Noooo there it was going all the same and you come along and say something different Bombsauce! Liquid also did the same in another thread still throwing the issue in the air.

 

I don't have Sandmans but that has 115 second cooldown I think so does it go so out of whack with every other DS? Does it take too long to proc (heard a few people say this) and then you hit DS first and everything is off balance?

 

I have Copelands (CC) on the 2 minute cooldown so it's always ready for every other DS. I guess perhaps that is why it's better waiting because if I go on DB cd then I don't sync back with CC for quite a while but the same as before I really do not know!

 

P.S. Just realised that once again I forgot about AD....

Edited January 21, 2015 by spikeysquad

[Bombsauce 3]

It's just something I do if I can. I've found after playing demo the last couple weeks this spec is more about decision making than following a rigid set of rules 100% of the time. The more you play it, the more you find little windows of opportunity to get more DB's out with buffs. I nearly one shotted a spore shooter on mythic bracken last night with a 5 stack DB........

[spikeysquad 50]

Thanks for the clarification Bombsauce and I agree with where you are coming from to a point. I have been playing Demo on and off for about 4 months (don't ask) but it was only about 3 weeks ago I was finally consistently where I was meant to be (except maybe on Tectus) for my level of play.

 

So now I guess I need a bit more experience to gain that intuition. At first I was doing the dump all when off CD and a good proc then I changed to the wait for DS however I have to say my numbers have not been quite as good though I don't really know if that is just RNG or what.

 

So the gist perhaps is when to dump depends on what procs are up, how long for DS and what other procs will be about then, how much fury we have, how much we have to move for when DS is up and the like? And when the burst is needed the most. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by spikeysquad

[Facade 1]

I plan to run a few more tests, but it seems like feels better to wait for DS if you dont have procs up. Since each consecutive demonbolt is less DF efficient than the previous, you want to make sure the ones that cost the most DF per point of damage(and are hitting the hardest) are buffed by your largest CDs, while the first couple might not be as essential. This is all from napkin math and a short heroic run yesterday, so take it with a grain of salt. It was my first time playing demo in a few weeks, but my single target evened out around 28k by the end of fights with a 651ilvl. Not sure how decent that it, but it was fun to get back into demo.

[Oldtrout 7]

I'm thinking, if running GoSyn, and considering you'll have ~600-700 fury when the debuff drops, that it's worth delaying demonbolt until >800 fury in the hope of proccing Synergy. If / when it does proc, you obviously delay no longer and instantly pop DS and dump. You also dont go any further when you've enough fury for 4 DBs.

 

At an average haste level and considering bloodlust on pull, there's a period around 2:30 into a fight when our dark soul has around 20 seconds left on CD but our DB debuff has dropped. If we delay a little with our 2nd and 3rd DS, it eats off a bit of that 20 second period. The fact we're delaying for a reason (to get up to enough fury for 4 demonbolts and / or waiting for the Synergy proc) just makes it more worthwhile.

 

This is under the assumption that delaying for dark soul isn't a colossal dps loss. Looking at all the top Butcher logs, it doesn't look like it is (and the very top parse looks like it's doing exactly what I'm suggesting).

Edited January 21, 2015 by Oldtrout

[Cardio33 3]

I think it's safe to say the situation is extremely variable. I'll give you another theoretical example, I currently use copelands + runestone. I've started second guessing popping 4xDBs along with DD for each copelands proc. you come out if meta with zero fury and 10 sec left on your copelands.

I'm starting to use this rotation:

Wait for >900 fury

Go meta and pop Copelands + DS.

3xDB and refresh dots as needed

Spend HoG charges and back into meta

At end of copelands land a 4th DB if I have fury or ToC/SF