Dark soul glyphed or not?

[PerfectDefect 0]

I'm looking for some input in the matter of using the DS glyph or not as destro lock.

My personal experience is that the glyphed version is better but another warlock in my guild says it's s dps loss.

I did some dummie testing to come to a solution, did 4 tests each over 2,5 min and 4 tests each over 5 min. All tests where without any buffs and i had AD as tier 6 talent. All tests are purely single target.

In the 2,5 min tests the glyphed and no glyphed ds where almost exactly the same. In the 5 min test the no glyphed version pulled ahead 0,5k - 1,0k in dps.

So in numbers the other lock is right that it's a dps loss to glyph DS.

But in reality? I don't know. I do know however that i have to cast away many cb's that is unbuffed so that i don't cap on embers. And when i have 3,5 embers and popping DS i manage to get off 4 buffed ones in 10 seconds wich speaks for tje glyphed version.

Without the glyph i get 10 seconds to cast more incinerate to get more cb's that is going to be cast without buffs. I probably get off another cb wich makes it 5 per minute that is buffed from DS.

With the glyph i can max get 8 cb's cast over a minute that is buffed with ds.

Also the glyph together with AD makes me have a dps cd almost all the time snd for any occasion.

Another thing to take in considiration is that my dummie testing was purely single target. With all the havoc the ember generation will get me more cb's to cast that is unbuffed.

So what is best in reality? My testing says no glyph is better but so much speaks for the glyphed version.

Please help me come to a better understanding in this matter.

[Paracel 165]

Warning: wall of text incoming

With the glyph i can max get 8 cb's cast over a minute that is buffed with ds.
Also the glyph together with AD makes me have a dps cd almost all the time snd for any occasion.
 

I can't get where are you getting those 8 CBs in a minute from. Wouldn't you mind to explain further?
It's just confusing for me. You ain't getting this much of embers to dump during DS. Especially 2 10seconded DS.

For really argumented discussion, we should find how much is the ember generation in average for a minute, to calculate the average amount of unbuffed CBs.

Main reasons of DS glyph being not-so-useful are those, IMO.

1)Trinkets.
And this is the main reason.
They. Worth. So. Much. 
Because the very concept of Destro is spending limited resource with maximum efficiency and minumum waste.

DS being 120 seconds comes very handy in terms of combining procs.
Sandman's? 115 seconds ICD.
Copeland's? 120 seconds.
Shards? 120 seconds. 

2)Embers.
 I'll try to do the math.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/VwjQ42bDkWhzvgXL#fight=62&type=casts&translate=true&source=11
Here is log featuring Heroic Butcher, Me as Aff, my fellow guildie as Destro and much of bad performance.
Let's take this not as the best DPS example, but look at ember generation.

Destro Warlock casted:
105 Incinerates with 25 crits = 130 emberbits.
28 Critical Immo ticks with 6 Critical Immo casts = 34 emberbits.
23 Conflagrates with 8 crits = 31 emberbits.
Add 10 emberbits given at the start of the fight, and it wil be 205 emberbits, or 20,5 embers.

For clarity - 205 embers during 4:25 seconds long fight. 50 per minute in average, enough to fuel Glyphed DS each minute.

How had he spent them? 
He spent them on 15 CBs and 5 SBs. Let's pass on the fact he ever used SB and take them as CBs. 20 CBs.
He had no big proc or really much affecting trinket, only DS and Void Shards (haste on demand, not Crit/SPD).
3 during 1st DS
4 during 2nd DS
1 unbuffed
4 during 3rd DS
and 3 more unbuffed. Then there were 5 SB casts, in period when his DS was on CD(between 02:20 and 04:20) - we can take them as embers spent on unbuffed CBs. 
That gives us 11 buffed and 9 unbuffed CBs. Not an impressive count, but he isn't the best warlock in the universe.

What would change given Glyph of Dark Soul was used?

1)1st DS(00:09 - 00:29) being 10 seconds instead of 20 : 3rd CB of this cycle was cast at 00:27.3. Would be unbuffed.

2)2nd DS(01:14 - 01:24)wouldn't lose anything.  But he finished 4th CB of this phase at 01:23.1, having 0.9 seconds left. If there would be any interrupt involved(like movement), he would've lost it.

3)3rd DS(02:20 - 02:40) would lost 4th CB(casted at 02:31.6) again, because of 10 second DS.

4)However, his DS would be up at the point of Bloodlust (03:20 and later), meaning 4 of unbuffed CBs/SBs would be buffed.

In this exact given situation, warlock would lose 2 buffed CBs and win 4 buffed CBs at the end. Some solid advantage.

But we shouldn't forget one thing - this bonus 10 seconds of DS affect Incinerates, Conflagrates and Immo ticks aswell. I'm not even talking Doom Bolts of Almighty Doomguard Overlord(27%of dps in given fight)

1st DS buffed 6 Incies and 1 Conflag. Glyphed DS would only buff 2 Incies and 1 Conflag.
2nd DS buffed 5 Incies and 2 Conflags. Glyphed DS would only affect 1 Conflag
3rd DS buffed whooping 8 Incies and 2 Conflags. Glyphed DS would only affect 1 Inci and 1 Conflag,
We can't really make a comparision about 4th DS because it didn't happen in realistic log.

What's the pure win? 
16 buffed Incies and 2 buffed Conflags.
And again, don't forget the pet attacks, critical spells giving more embers and stuff.

Convincing enough?

TL;DR : Don't bother yourself with glyph, trinkets worth much and line up good, usual spells buffed are awesome aswell.

Sorry if my grammar sucks.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hope that helps.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Paracel

[PerfectDefect 0]

Thanks for the answer Paracel, somhow i can't log in here when i'm home so i'm at work now replying.

All that calculating is saying much, however it's a purely single target-no movement fight. What happens when you fight Tectus Mythic? Brackenspore Mythic? Kargath mythic? It's a rare thing to be able to stand still for 20 seconds only doing damage. That's why i used the glyph. To get 10 seconds standing still doing nothing but dps is possible if you get a good knowledge of the mechanics.

But one thing you mention is that in the log you provided the other lock had enough embers to fuel the glyphed DS but still loosing to the unglyphed DS. that alone is enough to call the unglyphed version a winner. But you know what? I still like the glyph so i decided to start up the old simulationCraft. The results was not what i expected.

Unglyphed: 27,533 dps

Glyphed: 27,532 dps

You have shown me that not using the glyph is better on the Butcher. But as far as i know, SC is the best way of calculating different specs, talents, glyphs and gear. Is it something i'm missing here? Havn't used it in a year or so but updated it before simulating.

When i use the glyph manage to get off 3-4 cast of CB. The lock in the logs barely managed to get 4 without the glyph. I don't know if that changes a lot but just wanted to mention it. I might be a little old fashioned but when i started to play lock it was all about casting CB with buffs, never without if you are not close to capping om embers. Has that changed? Cause with trinkets i have the DS is the only dps proc i have.

Don't get me wrong, i appreciate your answer a lot and this reply is by no means a disrespectful one. The things you calculated with the buffed incinerate, coflag etc is something i couldn't have done and i owe you a thank you for bringing me clarity in that matter.

But as you can see, i'm not totally convinced but will go with the unglyphed version.

Ps, about that 8 cb per minute, ignore that it was just me being not so sober.

[Paracel 165]

All that calculating is saying much, however it's a purely single target-no movement fight. What happens when you fight Tectus Mythic? Brackenspore Mythic? Kargath mythic? It's a rare thing to be able to stand still for 20 seconds only doing damage. That's why i used the glyph. To get 10 seconds standing still doing nothing but dps is possible if you get a good knowledge of the mechanics.

 

Glyph is not affecting SimCraft, because it has balanced effect numbers-wise. 

It affects actual gameplay.

10 seconds standing still is probably the thing I'm finding most irritating. Your mobility is absolutely not ok as Destro, and having those "immobile phases" more often is only making it worse.

20 seconds window is more flexible and convenient to use (for me).

I can make an example from gameplay situation that happens pretty much often to me:

1)DS is off cooldown, Sandman's ICD is too. I'm waiting for proc to stack them and use CBs. I have around 35 embers.

2)To avoid ember capping, I spend one ember and use unbuffed CB.

3)RNG does not favor me and trinket procs afterwards.

That means I have around 25 embers and I have to use my DS in order to maximize buff stacking.

20 second DS allows me to dump 2 CBs and then I still have some time to get some embers for 3rd and even 4th CB.

There is a lot of mechanics in Highmaul fights which are a bit random and are forcing movement. Even fight knowledge can't affect who will get Arcane Mark or Crystaline barrage in the middle of their burn phase.

 

Edited January 19, 2015 by Paracel

[Zinthar 2]

There is a lot of mechanics in Highmaul fights which are a bit random and are forcing movement. Even fight knowledge can't affect who will get Arcane Mark or Crystaline barrage in the middle of their burn phase.

 

 

Wouldn't the flexibility offered by having 10 second windows that come up twice as often be an argument *for* using the glyph?  On a high-movement fight you could talent KJC, which has the same CD as DS when glyphed, and use them simultaneously to reduce the risk that you'll have your burn phase interrupted.

[Paracel 165]

Wouldn't the flexibility offered by having 10 second windows that come up twice as often be an argument *for* using the glyph?  On a high-movement fight you could talent KJC, which has the same CD as DS when glyphed, and use them simultaneously to reduce the risk that you'll have your burn phase interrupted.

More burn phases is the issue, because you don't have more stuffs to burn during them.

I often want my KJCs outside of burn phases, or twice in a minute, for example. It's not a cure.

20 second is flexible. 10 is not. That's my point.

[Xolia 0]

I only have Stage 1 of the Darkmoon Trinket and I personally use the glyph because there is a gap between the Darkmoon Trinket proc where I have 3.5 embers that I can use to CB dump, which also saves me some cd time of conflags and non-backdraft Incinerates. By the time Darkmoon procs again, I have a new charge of DS up for it. Here is a video of my example. This for me is a stationary fight in which I barely move so this is not ideal for 70% of HM bosses.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3elRLqQn64I

 

PS: I know I didn't use a pre-pot, I'm an idiot.

[Paracel 165]

Ok folks, I'm out of arguments for this topic. I coulda just point to the guide and say "do liek dis", but that's not a valid reason.

Use what is more convienient and comfortable for you.
SimCraft says there is 1(one) DPS difference, as @PerfectDefect pointed out. 

I won't do so because I have my glyph slots packed heavy with SoulStone, Healthstone and Passive Unending resolve/Healing from Immolate. 
 

[Stunlocked 8]

I only have Stage 1 of the Darkmoon Trinket and I personally use the glyph because there is a gap between the Darkmoon Trinket proc where I have 3.5 embers that I can use to CB dump, which also saves me some cd time of conflags and non-backdraft Incinerates. By the time Darkmoon procs again, I have a new charge of DS up for it. Here is a video of my example. This for me is a stationary fight in which I barely move so this is not ideal for 70% of HM bosses.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3elRLqQn64I

 

PS: I know I didn't use a pre-pot, I'm an idiot.

 

The DMF trinket has a 115 internal cooldown, which means that without the glyph you can almost always line it up with Dark Soul.  

The two on-use trinkets have 2 minute cooldowns.  The DMF trinket has an internal cooldown of around 2 minutes.  And If you use Gimoire of Service with Demonic Servitude, it has a 2 minute cooldown which means you can have a buffed doomguard pop out every time DS comes off cooldown.  Yes, there's sometimes going to be a gap between it and DS - but it's probably going to be considerably less than a minute.  

I'm not going to pretend to be a theorycrafter or math whiz, but it seems like by using the glyph you guys are guys are wasting Dark Soul buffs - you're only taking full advantage of it every other time it's available, as opposed to every time it's available.